How are your DE groups organized?
09-27-2018, 09:51 PM
#46
09-28-2018, 09:20 AM
#47
If the people in charge have experience from the past that suggests that my ideas are crazy and dangerous, then I defer to their experiences holding a lot more weight than my theories.
That can only apply to my ideas about the lower run groups though. If the track is too dangerous to allow open passing in the advanced group then it's also too dangerous to allow open passing in the instructor group. As mentioned... the skill level in the two groups should be on par with one another.
Now... if the skill levels are NOT on par, then perhaps some shuffling of groups is in order. If they've promoted people to the advanced group that are not capable of handling open passing then they could move those members back to the intermediate group at the same time they introduce the new rules. I know this might hurt some feelings but there's certainly ways to do this that wouldn't be a disaster.
They could announce the pending change at the beginning of the season and send out a detailed explanation to every current Black level driver. Then they could spend an entire season giving check-out rides to current Black drivers in the Red group and then, the following year, anyone who has not had a check-out ride moves to White when they make the rule changes.
09-28-2018, 10:07 AM
#48
I don't run with PCA locally. They only do weekday events and they choose to use the most boring track in the state. The organization I run with breaks drivers up into 4 groups.
Group 4 is the beginners. People new to the particular track or new to track days in general. The are not required to take an instructor with them, but it is highly recommended and the group running order (2, 1, 3, 4) is intentional so the most experienced drivers in Group 1 have a session between their driving and riding/instructing sessions. Passing areas depend on the track, but is almost always restricted to the straight or straights, only allowed with a point-by, and only on the driver's side.
Group 3 is the intermediate drivers. They should be slightly faster as they have been to the track and done a few HPDE's. Passing rules are exactly the same as Group 4, but this group is expected to know and follow them so everyone else's day goes by faster and more fun.
Group 2 is the advanced drivers. This is people who run multiple track days a year. Cars range from a stock FRS/BRZ up to old NASCAR stock cars and NASA TT/ST prepared cars. Passing still requires a point-by, but you can point a faster car by anywhere on track and you can point them by on your left or right. There is no concern for closing speeds as you can't just dive under someone in a corner, but allowing the point-by anywhere on track does help reduce the stack-up that would normally occur with faster and slower cars on track at the same time.
Group 1 is the "racing" class. Open passing anywhere on track, no point-by required. Group 1 does require proper 4/5/6 point harnesses and head & neck restraints.
Overall I think it works very well. We have very few issues. I've never seen two cars collide at an event.
200 cars at a DE event? Wow! The group I described above limits entry to 60 cars per event. With the organizers not requiring themselves to register I figure we have 65-70 cars per day. Group 2 and 3 are the heaviest with 20 cars per group. Then we'll have a dozen in Group 4 and the rest in Group 1. People from Group 3 will frequently drop down to Group 4 just because there are fewer cars and more potential for an open track. Sometimes people will jump up from Group 2 to Group 1, but the limiting factor is usually ownership of a head and neck restraint. For me the limiting factor is your second comment...the closing speed. I consider myself a good driver and I know I could run with Group 1. I even have a 3-point compatible HANS courtesy of my employer. Unfortunately I have no torque in a Cayman and I'm an obstacle at the end of the straight. I know I'm 3-4 seconds a lap too slow to really get around in that group without being a hindrance.
Group 4 is the beginners. People new to the particular track or new to track days in general. The are not required to take an instructor with them, but it is highly recommended and the group running order (2, 1, 3, 4) is intentional so the most experienced drivers in Group 1 have a session between their driving and riding/instructing sessions. Passing areas depend on the track, but is almost always restricted to the straight or straights, only allowed with a point-by, and only on the driver's side.
Group 3 is the intermediate drivers. They should be slightly faster as they have been to the track and done a few HPDE's. Passing rules are exactly the same as Group 4, but this group is expected to know and follow them so everyone else's day goes by faster and more fun.
Group 2 is the advanced drivers. This is people who run multiple track days a year. Cars range from a stock FRS/BRZ up to old NASCAR stock cars and NASA TT/ST prepared cars. Passing still requires a point-by, but you can point a faster car by anywhere on track and you can point them by on your left or right. There is no concern for closing speeds as you can't just dive under someone in a corner, but allowing the point-by anywhere on track does help reduce the stack-up that would normally occur with faster and slower cars on track at the same time.
Group 1 is the "racing" class. Open passing anywhere on track, no point-by required. Group 1 does require proper 4/5/6 point harnesses and head & neck restraints.
Overall I think it works very well. We have very few issues. I've never seen two cars collide at an event.
Kevin, 100% in agreement that something needs to be done with our PCA UCR chapter run groups. We have a very active chapter, often with 200 cars registered for a DE weekend - many of whom run in the white, black and red groups.
Black run group (advanced) has some crazy speed differentials out on the track. We have full blown race cars and 991 GT3RS's running Pirelli DH slicks on track with basically stock 944's and everything in between. There are WAY too many cars out there on track in the black group, and the closing speed differentials almost cause (or do cause) accidents every weekend.
Black run group (advanced) has some crazy speed differentials out on the track. We have full blown race cars and 991 GT3RS's running Pirelli DH slicks on track with basically stock 944's and everything in between. There are WAY too many cars out there on track in the black group, and the closing speed differentials almost cause (or do cause) accidents every weekend.
09-28-2018, 10:20 AM
#49
I don't run with PCA locally. They only do weekday events and they choose to use the most boring track in the state. The organization I run with breaks drivers up into 4 groups.
Group 4 is the beginners. People new to the particular track or new to track days in general. The are not required to take an instructor with them, but it is highly recommended and the group running order (2, 1, 3, 4) is intentional so the most experienced drivers in Group 1 have a session between their driving and riding/instructing sessions. Passing areas depend on the track, but is almost always restricted to the straight or straights, only allowed with a point-by, and only on the driver's side.
Group 3 is the intermediate drivers. They should be slightly faster as they have been to the track and done a few HPDE's. Passing rules are exactly the same as Group 4, but this group is expected to know and follow them so everyone else's day goes by faster and more fun.
Group 2 is the advanced drivers. This is people who run multiple track days a year. Cars range from a stock FRS/BRZ up to old NASCAR stock cars and NASA TT/ST prepared cars. Passing still requires a point-by, but you can point a faster car by anywhere on track and you can point them by on your left or right. There is no concern for closing speeds as you can't just dive under someone in a corner, but allowing the point-by anywhere on track does help reduce the stack-up that would normally occur with faster and slower cars on track at the same time.
Group 1 is the "racing" class. Open passing anywhere on track, no point-by required. Group 1 does require proper 4/5/6 point harnesses and head & neck restraints.
Overall I think it works very well. We have very few issues. I've never seen two cars collide at an event.
Group 4 is the beginners. People new to the particular track or new to track days in general. The are not required to take an instructor with them, but it is highly recommended and the group running order (2, 1, 3, 4) is intentional so the most experienced drivers in Group 1 have a session between their driving and riding/instructing sessions. Passing areas depend on the track, but is almost always restricted to the straight or straights, only allowed with a point-by, and only on the driver's side.
Group 3 is the intermediate drivers. They should be slightly faster as they have been to the track and done a few HPDE's. Passing rules are exactly the same as Group 4, but this group is expected to know and follow them so everyone else's day goes by faster and more fun.
Group 2 is the advanced drivers. This is people who run multiple track days a year. Cars range from a stock FRS/BRZ up to old NASCAR stock cars and NASA TT/ST prepared cars. Passing still requires a point-by, but you can point a faster car by anywhere on track and you can point them by on your left or right. There is no concern for closing speeds as you can't just dive under someone in a corner, but allowing the point-by anywhere on track does help reduce the stack-up that would normally occur with faster and slower cars on track at the same time.
Group 1 is the "racing" class. Open passing anywhere on track, no point-by required. Group 1 does require proper 4/5/6 point harnesses and head & neck restraints.
Overall I think it works very well. We have very few issues. I've never seen two cars collide at an event.
09-28-2018, 01:05 PM
#50
Race Car
Yes there is some very good information here and it has been applied by these organizations at their tracks.
No two groups are run the same and there is a reason for this. No two groups or tracks are the same.
UCR at Mosport has been running for years very successfully. It has been tweaked many times to improve it. Do you not think that they have not thought of your suggestions before Kevin? They have discussed many variations and use what they feel is best for all.
You had this discussion with the Chief instructor on the UCR forum and he answered your questions. I guess you didn't like his answers.
As far as running the black group with the red group, we need to look at the lowest denominator. I'll just leave it at that.
This has been a informative thread though.
09-28-2018, 02:15 PM
#51
UCR at Mosport has been running for years very successfully. It has been tweaked many times to improve it. Do you not think that they have not thought of your suggestions before Kevin? They have discussed many variations and use what they feel is best for all.
You had this discussion with the Chief instructor on the UCR forum and he answered your questions. I guess you didn't like his answers.
You had this discussion with the Chief instructor on the UCR forum and he answered your questions. I guess you didn't like his answers.
Just so there's no misunderstanding... I started this thread here very shortly after starting the one on the UCR forum because I didn't think very many people would see it there and I was interested in hearing how other organizations do things. This had nothing to do with any issues with the CI's answers. I fully respect that the people in charge there are on top of things and mean no disrespect.
I've mentioned a few times in this thread that Mosport is quite unique and that there are likely very good reasons to do things differently there.
As the rules have changed before though, certainly they can change again. You never know when a different perspective might come up that hasn't been thought of before.
09-28-2018, 02:17 PM
#52
To the OP: Easy fix for your problem--don't run with UCR if you're not happy with them.
There are many private groups that run @ Mosport; I run with my Mini with four of them and all are excellent. Formats range from having instructed run groups (novice, intermediate, advanced), to two groups (street, race) alternating every half-hour, to open track for advanced drivers where the track is open all day long and you come/go as you please. Probably a bit pricier but to me the experience is much better, both in the actual driving and also in not having to jump through all the hoops required with most DEs. And you won't find anything close to 200 cars at one of these events--they restrict the number of entries so you can actually work on your driving skills and not be in traffic much of the time.
These things cost too much money for you not to leave the event exhilarated so that you can't wait for the next one!
Gary
There are many private groups that run @ Mosport; I run with my Mini with four of them and all are excellent. Formats range from having instructed run groups (novice, intermediate, advanced), to two groups (street, race) alternating every half-hour, to open track for advanced drivers where the track is open all day long and you come/go as you please. Probably a bit pricier but to me the experience is much better, both in the actual driving and also in not having to jump through all the hoops required with most DEs. And you won't find anything close to 200 cars at one of these events--they restrict the number of entries so you can actually work on your driving skills and not be in traffic much of the time.
These things cost too much money for you not to leave the event exhilarated so that you can't wait for the next one!
Gary
09-28-2018, 02:29 PM
#53
I'm starting to feel quite misunderstood in my intentions though.
I've really enjoyed running with UCR and have made a lot of friends through it. There are a few aspects of it that I think stand head and shoulders above most other DE programmes. First and foremost is their attention to the safety of everyone involved. I've had many excellent instructors over the years and feel good knowing that the other people on the track with me have had a similar experience and have had to demonstrate a similar skill level to move through the groups. I also like knowing that every car on the track with me has had a technical inspection done prior to the event. And I love that Del is a very scary man and that his intimidation factor should keep everyone in line lest they have to go and have a conversation with him at any time.
I don't have a problem with UCR.
I'm just always up for a good debate and believe that even when things are good they can always be improved.
Last edited by Wild Weasel; 09-28-2018 at 05:16 PM. Reason: Typo
09-28-2018, 05:04 PM
#54
One thing with a signal anywhere is the driver having one's arm over the roof signaling while trying to go around the turn, and then driving off track....seen it/done it. I don't think that is effective. Either have a full racing group with equipped cars or limit the passing to straight (or straighter ) places. I have been told you are not allowed locally (SP) to give signals inside the car, which is utterly ridiculous.
) places. I have been told you are not allowed locally (SP) to give signals inside the car, which is utterly ridiculous.
09-28-2018, 06:06 PM
#55
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Just some feedback on how it is done over here in Europe:
- Most of the time two groups, beginners (passing zones defined) or guided driving and advanced / experienced (open passing). Some track day operators do advanced and race groups, or some catering to the advanced drivers do open pitlane. Only one event I am aware of is running with three groups (beginners, advanced / experienced and race cars), but that is a off season charity Christmas run
- Mandatory drivers briefing highlighting the rules. No race, this is driver education / safety training (and thereby covered by many insurance companies). The driver passing has the obligation to make this a save pass, no aggressive manoeuvres in the braking zone etc.
- However, point by completely unknown. Using indicators appreciated but not mandatory
- Windows up, most of the time mandatory
- Instructors are not volunteers but all pros (meaning professional race drivers who get paid for getting into race cars or at least don’t pay, other than probably 90% of those racing, or they are OEM drivers)
09-28-2018, 07:16 PM
#56
Drifting
One thing with a signal anywhere is the driver having one's arm over the roof signaling while trying to go around the turn, and then driving off track....seen it/done it. I don't think that is effective. Either have a full racing group with equipped cars or limit the passing to straight (or straighter ) places. I have been told you are not allowed locally (SP) to give signals inside the car, which is utterly ridiculous.
) places. I have been told you are not allowed locally (SP) to give signals inside the car, which is utterly ridiculous.but I’m not sure why this needs to be complicated in high run groups. You give a point by going into the corner and leave some room, which means pass will happend somewhere before or after the apex. After first session, you know who fast guys are and give them point bys earlier. I’ve given point bys way too early to some Vipers and Vettes when I’m not sure how quickly they closing on the straight to give them an option, sometimes they wont take it cuz they know my speed through corner and will wait to pass after the corner (with new point by).
I have also waived off many point bys when I know the car in front might be only 1-2mph slower, I’d rather keep momentum and catch him coming out of the corner then mess up both of our momentums. This actually irkes me when you give point by into a corner and person comes to a crawl cuz he is entering is offline. Dont take point by!
09-28-2018, 07:22 PM
#57
Drifting
Just some feedback on how it is done over here in Europe:
- Most of the time two groups, beginners (passing zones defined) or guided driving and advanced / experienced (open passing). Some track day operators do advanced and race groups, or some catering to the advanced drivers do open pitlane. Only one event I am aware of is running with three groups (beginners, advanced / experienced and race cars), but that is a off season charity Christmas run
- Mandatory drivers briefing highlighting the rules. No race, this is driver education / safety training (and thereby covered by many insurance companies). The driver passing has the obligation to make this a save pass, no aggressive manoeuvres in the braking zone etc.
- However, point by completely unknown. Using indicators appreciated but not mandatory
- Windows up, most of the time mandatory
- Instructors are not volunteers but all pros (meaning professional race drivers who get paid for getting into race cars or at least don’t pay, other than probably 90% of those racing, or they are OEM drivers)
09-29-2018, 01:27 PM
#58
The reason for passing down the inside is the car making the pass has greater speed and needs the buffer of pavement for run off. It's also the shortest way around the slower car.
That's not to say I haven't been two wide on the outside of turn 2 or turn 4, not where I wanted to be but we made it work.
To be completely honest the speed differences are far greater now than they were even 4 years ago. Massively different.
I don't see what open passing would really offer? Other than potential for incidents/miscommunication. It's not a racing program, it's DE. People need to remember this, leave the ego at home and calm down.
The amount of red mist tailgating and aggression i've seen this season has been appalling. I've seen a GT4 driver come up out of 5c onto the back of a 944 that is passing another 944 and brake aggressively (on the straight away) onto their *** end tailgating them. Then proceed to REV BOMB one of the cars, when he didn't get a point by from that car he then moved over and did the same move to the other car. Track day hero.
Keep in mind, it's not mandatory that a driver give a pass. They are zones to be used, they are encouraged but you aren't entitled to a pass in any zone if the driver being passed does not feel comfortable giving the pass.
There are drivers in higher run groups who routinely will not give passes into turn 2 or turn 3. Just their comfort level. Again, the misunderstanding that what we're doing is ***** out racing or close to it. It's Driver Education. Lapping, fun.
The egos are getting far too big and the cars far too fast. The last thing needed is more risk.
Also, based on machinery alone the Black run group has greater speeds and speed differentials than the instructor group. That has nothing to do with driver skill or experience.
09-29-2018, 01:54 PM
#59
200 cars at a DE event? Wow! The group I described above limits entry to 60 cars per event. With the organizers not requiring themselves to register I figure we have 65-70 cars per day. Group 2 and 3 are the heaviest with 20 cars per group. Then we'll have a dozen in Group 4 and the rest in Group 1. People from Group 3 will frequently drop down to Group 4 just because there are fewer cars and more potential for an open track. Sometimes people will jump up from Group 2 to Group 1, but the limiting factor is usually ownership of a head and neck restraint. For me the limiting factor is your second comment...the closing speed. I consider myself a good driver and I know I could run with Group 1. I even have a 3-point compatible HANS courtesy of my employer. Unfortunately I have no torque in a Cayman and I'm an obstacle at the end of the straight. I know I'm 3-4 seconds a lap too slow to really get around in that group without being a hindrance.
09-29-2018, 03:46 PM
#60
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I know 20 minute run groups are pretty standard in many track days, and it is a good amount of track time. However, if they went down to 15 minutes and got a couple extra run groups, it might be more fun even if it's for slightly less time.
I'm not in a super fast car, a Cayman R, and the couple of 944s and 986s out in White weren't really a problem holding up traffic, but I can imagine that with some seriously fast cars in Black, coming up on a slow car in a blind corner could be dangerous. Catching up to another car mid-corner and having to lift is one of my biggest concerns when you are really pushing it.
What is the big controversy about using turn-signals instead of arm signals? I've been used to using turn signals on many private track days, and I just started back up with PCA (had been in a non-P car for a while) and they are arm signals only. Personally I think it's a lot easier to flip a swith than take your left hand off the wheel. The only thing that I can think of is that you could accidentally give a signal with the blinkers?
AJ
I'm not in a super fast car, a Cayman R, and the couple of 944s and 986s out in White weren't really a problem holding up traffic, but I can imagine that with some seriously fast cars in Black, coming up on a slow car in a blind corner could be dangerous. Catching up to another car mid-corner and having to lift is one of my biggest concerns when you are really pushing it.
What is the big controversy about using turn-signals instead of arm signals? I've been used to using turn signals on many private track days, and I just started back up with PCA (had been in a non-P car for a while) and they are arm signals only. Personally I think it's a lot easier to flip a swith than take your left hand off the wheel. The only thing that I can think of is that you could accidentally give a signal with the blinkers?
AJ