How are your DE groups organized?
09-25-2018, 12:33 PM
#1
How are your DE groups organized?
I posted a suggestion to my regional PCA forums but very few people read those. I'm curious as to whether our set of groups is unique or whether they're similar to other regions.
We have 5 groups. Green, Yellow, White, Black, Red.
Green and Yellow are instructed.
White and Black are solo.
The Red group is only for instructors.
There's talk of doing events at other tracks, but for the most part all of our events are at the Grand Prix track at Mosport.
The rules for the Green and Yellow groups are identical. They can pass on the front straight, the back straight, and between turns 3 and 4.
The rules for the White and Black groups are also identical. They get additional passing zones between turns 1 and 2 and between 2 and 3.
The Red group has open passing (with a signal) except at the apexes.
It's worth noting that up until last year, the White group had the same passing zones as the Green and Yellow groups. They were given the additional zones last year, making them the same as the Black group.
So effectively, Green = Yellow and White = Black and nobody but instructors get open passing.
Do other regions do it similarly? Did our region just end up this way over the years? Does anyone have an advanced group with open passing that isn't just for instructors?
I went to a DE with a different organization and was placed in their advanced group with open passing and it was lots of fun.
What are your thoughts on this?
We have 5 groups. Green, Yellow, White, Black, Red.
Green and Yellow are instructed.
White and Black are solo.
The Red group is only for instructors.
There's talk of doing events at other tracks, but for the most part all of our events are at the Grand Prix track at Mosport.
The rules for the Green and Yellow groups are identical. They can pass on the front straight, the back straight, and between turns 3 and 4.
The rules for the White and Black groups are also identical. They get additional passing zones between turns 1 and 2 and between 2 and 3.
The Red group has open passing (with a signal) except at the apexes.
It's worth noting that up until last year, the White group had the same passing zones as the Green and Yellow groups. They were given the additional zones last year, making them the same as the Black group.
So effectively, Green = Yellow and White = Black and nobody but instructors get open passing.
Do other regions do it similarly? Did our region just end up this way over the years? Does anyone have an advanced group with open passing that isn't just for instructors?
I went to a DE with a different organization and was placed in their advanced group with open passing and it was lots of fun.
What are your thoughts on this?
09-25-2018, 12:35 PM
#2
For any UCR members, this is my suggestion for changing it. By all means tear it apart and show me the error of my thinking. 
Leave Green as it is, obviously.
Give Yellow the extra passing zones between 1 and 2 and between 2 and 3. Have the instructors teach the students in Yellow how to give pass signals after the apex and how to let by multiple cars in a passing zone.
Leave White as it is. Students now know how to use those zones and should give good pass signals on their own.
Give Black open passing like the Red group. It seems odd that people who aren’t interested in being instructors aren’t given the same track experience the instructors have.
Leave Green as it is, obviously.
Give Yellow the extra passing zones between 1 and 2 and between 2 and 3. Have the instructors teach the students in Yellow how to give pass signals after the apex and how to let by multiple cars in a passing zone.
Leave White as it is. Students now know how to use those zones and should give good pass signals on their own.
Give Black open passing like the Red group. It seems odd that people who aren’t interested in being instructors aren’t given the same track experience the instructors have.
09-25-2018, 05:06 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
09-25-2018, 06:11 PM
#4
I guess they are for instructors but not for anyone else.
09-25-2018, 06:51 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
Each region is different. Advanced drivers in black and red run groups get expanded passing in NNJR PCA.
Groups are green/yellow/white/blue/black/red. Blue and black are solo drivers.
Groups are green/yellow/white/blue/black/red. Blue and black are solo drivers.
09-25-2018, 09:42 PM
#7
I really like the NNJR way of instruction all the way up to blue, where people can still get signed off at each event if instructor is comfortable with the student's level, green or yellow or blue. So instructed students can get some valuable solo time early on, and still get a chance to go back to instruction and tie things back up, I think it allows a bit more growth/progress.
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09-25-2018, 10:41 PM
#8
Without resorting to some color ID lets just say the groups are:
Novice
Beginner
Intermediate
Advanced
Instructor
I've run with groups that allow open passing not only in instructor but also advanced groups.
But keep in mind that some regions are more concerned about safety and driver capability in their participant group placements; i.e. that means that some participants might be classified intermediate in one region whereas in another region they are considered advanced.
Novice
Beginner
Intermediate
Advanced
Instructor
I've run with groups that allow open passing not only in instructor but also advanced groups.
But keep in mind that some regions are more concerned about safety and driver capability in their participant group placements; i.e. that means that some participants might be classified intermediate in one region whereas in another region they are considered advanced.
09-25-2018, 11:01 PM
#9
Rennlist Member
Kevin, 100% in agreement that something needs to be done with our PCA UCR chapter run groups. We have a very active chapter, often with 200 cars registered for a DE weekend - many of whom run in the white, black and red groups.
Black run group (advanced) has some crazy speed differentials out on the track. We have full blown race cars and 991 GT3RS's running Pirelli DH slicks on track with basically stock 944's and everything in between. There are WAY too many cars out there on track in the black group, and the closing speed differentials almost cause (or do cause) accidents every weekend. Of Mosport's 10 corners, 8 of them are blind entries where you cannot see the track out when you enter the corner. A 991 GT3RS on full slicks coming in hot over corner 4 down the hill into corner 5 at 200 km/h+ only to find a gaggle of 944's putting along at the bottom of the hill heading into 5. With nowhere to go but a wall on the right - with physics doing everything in its power to put you in it, even on a clear lap. Scary.
I've often thought that it would make sense to merge green and yellow into a single instructed group (they are the least densely populated). Leave white as is - intermediate solo. Merge black and red run groups and allow open passing with a point by, but separate into two run groups - fast and faster. This would allow the 944's, 968's and other skilled drivers with slower cars, or street prepped cars, to run in a group with less speed differential. Then put the higher HP cars running at much faster speeds out together. BMW Trillium splits their advanced solo group into fast & faster, and it's awesome. Way more track awareness, point bys are given well before closing, and great flow with virtually no problems caused by massive speed differentials. I was really impressed with the Trillium advanced solo day I went to.
But that will never happen. Because PCA UCR is a social club full of big egos, and there would be a lot of butt hurt people that aren't put into the 'faster' group.
Black run group (advanced) has some crazy speed differentials out on the track. We have full blown race cars and 991 GT3RS's running Pirelli DH slicks on track with basically stock 944's and everything in between. There are WAY too many cars out there on track in the black group, and the closing speed differentials almost cause (or do cause) accidents every weekend. Of Mosport's 10 corners, 8 of them are blind entries where you cannot see the track out when you enter the corner. A 991 GT3RS on full slicks coming in hot over corner 4 down the hill into corner 5 at 200 km/h+ only to find a gaggle of 944's putting along at the bottom of the hill heading into 5. With nowhere to go but a wall on the right - with physics doing everything in its power to put you in it, even on a clear lap. Scary.
I've often thought that it would make sense to merge green and yellow into a single instructed group (they are the least densely populated). Leave white as is - intermediate solo. Merge black and red run groups and allow open passing with a point by, but separate into two run groups - fast and faster. This would allow the 944's, 968's and other skilled drivers with slower cars, or street prepped cars, to run in a group with less speed differential. Then put the higher HP cars running at much faster speeds out together. BMW Trillium splits their advanced solo group into fast & faster, and it's awesome. Way more track awareness, point bys are given well before closing, and great flow with virtually no problems caused by massive speed differentials. I was really impressed with the Trillium advanced solo day I went to.
But that will never happen. Because PCA UCR is a social club full of big egos, and there would be a lot of butt hurt people that aren't put into the 'faster' group.
09-25-2018, 11:10 PM
#10
I didn’t know Trillium organized their groups like that.
I remember thinking it was a great idea when they did that at WGI when I was at the Zone 1 event.
I was a beginner at the time but I remember the announcement and that it made good sense.
I don't understand why instructors have different rules than the most advanced student group.
I remember thinking it was a great idea when they did that at WGI when I was at the Zone 1 event.
I was a beginner at the time but I remember the announcement and that it made good sense.
I don't understand why instructors have different rules than the most advanced student group.
09-26-2018, 05:12 AM
#12
I think it works well to separate green, novices, from yellow, beginners, just because the speeds can be so different with people that are out on the track for the first few times in their life. This is done most places, but can be challenging in situations where there are very few inexperienced drivers.
In a few regions instructed and solo beginners are in the same run group. I think that works really well. There are plenty of instructors out in the sessions and they keep an eye out on the students that are getting their first solo time.
Per this conversation I’ve seen many regions apply open passing rules equally to both instructor and advanced solo run groups, but on the downside, most of these regions do separate by instructor vs advanced. I think times have changed, and the wide ranges of hardware being brought to tracks does indicate a separation by lap times in the top two advanced run groups. Instructors already have he much needed flexibility to go out in different run groups. I agree this change is overdue in most regions and should be considered as a PCA best practice.
In a few regions instructed and solo beginners are in the same run group. I think that works really well. There are plenty of instructors out in the sessions and they keep an eye out on the students that are getting their first solo time.
Per this conversation I’ve seen many regions apply open passing rules equally to both instructor and advanced solo run groups, but on the downside, most of these regions do separate by instructor vs advanced. I think times have changed, and the wide ranges of hardware being brought to tracks does indicate a separation by lap times in the top two advanced run groups. Instructors already have he much needed flexibility to go out in different run groups. I agree this change is overdue in most regions and should be considered as a PCA best practice.
09-26-2018, 09:06 AM
#13
Rennlist Member
At Potomac we run similar to what is described for NNJR, with a little twist at the top (advanced).
Green: Beginner (Instructed) with simple passing on long straights
Blue: Intermediate Instructed with 1 or 2 more passing zones
White: Intermediate Solo with 1 or 2 additional passing zones
Black: Advanced Solo with open passing anywhere on the track (with a point by)
Red: ???? (not sure what this is called) Advanced Solo with open passing anywhere on the track (with a point by)
However there is a difference in Black and Red. The Black group can hold off on a point by until they are comfortable (like waiting to get through a corner) while the Red group is more of an anticipated point by, meaning they should see you coming, plan the pass, move to a side, and give the point such that the passing car never lost their momentum. So to get from Black to Red you have to demonstrate exceptional situational awareness, be able to go offline any time (to set up the pass), and be comfortable with tight side by side driving in the corners.
Green: Beginner (Instructed) with simple passing on long straights
Blue: Intermediate Instructed with 1 or 2 more passing zones
White: Intermediate Solo with 1 or 2 additional passing zones
Black: Advanced Solo with open passing anywhere on the track (with a point by)
Red: ???? (not sure what this is called) Advanced Solo with open passing anywhere on the track (with a point by)
However there is a difference in Black and Red. The Black group can hold off on a point by until they are comfortable (like waiting to get through a corner) while the Red group is more of an anticipated point by, meaning they should see you coming, plan the pass, move to a side, and give the point such that the passing car never lost their momentum. So to get from Black to Red you have to demonstrate exceptional situational awareness, be able to go offline any time (to set up the pass), and be comfortable with tight side by side driving in the corners.
09-26-2018, 09:27 AM
#14
It's interesting to see all of the variations. There doesn't seem to be anyone out there doing it quite like UCR is.
To play the other side of the argument... I wonder if this has anything to do with the uniqueness of Mosport and it's extremely high speeds and blind corners. Do they think they think the advanced drivers simply can't handle open passing (with signals, obviously) and maybe don't want to take any risks?
One of the things I've really liked about the PCA DE programme from the very beginning was the emphasis on safety. I like knowing that nobody gets to solo until they've been thoroughly vetted. I like knowing that every car on the track has been inspected by a mechanic previous to the event. These are all very positive things.
I wonder if they gave the Instructors the same rules as the Advanced group though whether they simply wouldn't have enough instructors showing up anymore and, if that's the case, if maybe it's a heads-up that they're lessening the experience for those that can handle it.
To play the other side of the argument... I wonder if this has anything to do with the uniqueness of Mosport and it's extremely high speeds and blind corners. Do they think they think the advanced drivers simply can't handle open passing (with signals, obviously) and maybe don't want to take any risks?
One of the things I've really liked about the PCA DE programme from the very beginning was the emphasis on safety. I like knowing that nobody gets to solo until they've been thoroughly vetted. I like knowing that every car on the track has been inspected by a mechanic previous to the event. These are all very positive things.
I wonder if they gave the Instructors the same rules as the Advanced group though whether they simply wouldn't have enough instructors showing up anymore and, if that's the case, if maybe it's a heads-up that they're lessening the experience for those that can handle it.
09-26-2018, 09:52 AM
#15
Race Director
Kevin, 100% in agreement that something needs to be done with our PCA UCR chapter run groups. We have a very active chapter, often with 200 cars registered for a DE weekend - many of whom run in the white, black and red groups.
Black run group (advanced) has some crazy speed differentials out on the track. We have full blown race cars and 991 GT3RS's running Pirelli DH slicks on track with basically stock 944's and everything in between. There are WAY too many cars out there on track in the black group, and the closing speed differentials almost cause (or do cause) accidents every weekend. Of Mosport's 10 corners, 8 of them are blind entries where you cannot see the track out when you enter the corner. A 991 GT3RS on full slicks coming in hot over corner 4 down the hill into corner 5 at 200 km/h+ only to find a gaggle of 944's putting along at the bottom of the hill heading into 5. With nowhere to go but a wall on the right - with physics doing everything in its power to put you in it, even on a clear lap. Scary.
I've often thought that it would make sense to merge green and yellow into a single instructed group (they are the least densely populated). Leave white as is - intermediate solo. Merge black and red run groups and allow open passing with a point by, but separate into two run groups - fast and faster. This would allow the 944's, 968's and other skilled drivers with slower cars, or street prepped cars, to run in a group with less speed differential. Then put the higher HP cars running at much faster speeds out together. BMW Trillium splits their advanced solo group into fast & faster, and it's awesome. Way more track awareness, point bys are given well before closing, and great flow with virtually no problems caused by massive speed differentials. I was really impressed with the Trillium advanced solo day I went to.
But that will never happen. Because PCA UCR is a social club full of big egos, and there would be a lot of butt hurt people that aren't put into the 'faster' group.
Black run group (advanced) has some crazy speed differentials out on the track. We have full blown race cars and 991 GT3RS's running Pirelli DH slicks on track with basically stock 944's and everything in between. There are WAY too many cars out there on track in the black group, and the closing speed differentials almost cause (or do cause) accidents every weekend. Of Mosport's 10 corners, 8 of them are blind entries where you cannot see the track out when you enter the corner. A 991 GT3RS on full slicks coming in hot over corner 4 down the hill into corner 5 at 200 km/h+ only to find a gaggle of 944's putting along at the bottom of the hill heading into 5. With nowhere to go but a wall on the right - with physics doing everything in its power to put you in it, even on a clear lap. Scary.
I've often thought that it would make sense to merge green and yellow into a single instructed group (they are the least densely populated). Leave white as is - intermediate solo. Merge black and red run groups and allow open passing with a point by, but separate into two run groups - fast and faster. This would allow the 944's, 968's and other skilled drivers with slower cars, or street prepped cars, to run in a group with less speed differential. Then put the higher HP cars running at much faster speeds out together. BMW Trillium splits their advanced solo group into fast & faster, and it's awesome. Way more track awareness, point bys are given well before closing, and great flow with virtually no problems caused by massive speed differentials. I was really impressed with the Trillium advanced solo day I went to.
But that will never happen. Because PCA UCR is a social club full of big egos, and there would be a lot of butt hurt people that aren't put into the 'faster' group.
