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Laguna Seca turn 9

 
Old 08-13-2018, 09:47 AM
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zzyzx
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Default Laguna Seca turn 9

Does using all of the exit of turn 9, including the exit curbing, have a significant benefit for lap times?

The camber falls away half way between the apex and the outside edge of the road. Also, the exit curbing is slippery. So, it seems to me that since there isn't much grip on the exit, there isn't much time to be gained in using the whole of the track.

Most of the pro drivers I've watched don't use all of the exit on that corner. That said, I have heard a former Skip Barber instructor stating that there is time to be gained in this corner if you use all of the exit. Also, Ross Bentley says that he would use even the exit curbing if he was going for a qualifying lap.

Personally, I love using all of the track on exit and hearing my outside tires on the exit curbing. But I don't think it does much for lap times.

What do you guys think? Has anyone ever studied their data closely in this corner?
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Old 08-13-2018, 10:31 AM
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Good question. Here are my observations. I'm curious what others with more experience here think.

I've improved my lap times by almost using all the track at exit at T9. In my fairly low powered car, I have to consciously get to full throttle much sooner than I think I should at T9 so the car will naturally wash out to the right. All other things being equal, I've found I'm carrying a lot more speed and positioned more inside coming into the T10 breaking zone than the other cars, so it's become a good place for me to pass under braking.

The downside to this approach is that it's harder for me to setup T10. There's a smaller straight between T9-10 than T10-11, so I wonder if some compromise exit of T9 to better optimize T10?
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Old 08-13-2018, 01:41 PM
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I always use all the track out at T9. I use the exit curbing as a buffer incase I slide out a little wide... I generally don't aim to use it, except in qualifying or if I'm trying to get a run on somebody for an overtake into T11.

-mike
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Old 08-13-2018, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by fleadh View Post
I always use all the track out at T9. I use the exit curbing as a buffer incase I slide out a little wide... I generally don't aim to use it, except in qualifying or if I'm trying to get a run on somebody for an overtake into T11.

-mike
Agreed. If you don't reach or lightly use the exit curb at T9, you're holding the apex too long or not going quickly enough. That said, there have been some knarly offs from people AIMING for that, sliding wide and going off. Either to the right or hooking back left.
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Old 08-13-2018, 01:50 PM
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You need to use the curbing of the exit. if you are not, you are sandbagging the turn. Most pros have cars that are SO capable and are not using the car to its full extent in this area if driving narrow. its as important as hitting the apex . sure many dont , but it doesnt make it the fastest way around the track.
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Old 08-13-2018, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by zzyzx View Post
Does using all of the exit of turn 9, including the exit curbing, have a significant benefit for lap times?

I have heard a former Skip Barber instructor stating that there is time to be gained in this corner if you use all of the exit. Also, Ross Bentley says that he would use even the exit curbing if he was going for a qualifying lap.

Has anyone ever studied their data closely in this corner?
In the preparation of the VTW (Speed Screts Virtual Track Walk) for this course, Ross and I reviewed data for more than fifty different cars in a variety of trims, turning lap times from 1:21.XXX to 1:50+

Part of the idea is that you are "carried" out due to choosing the optimal speed (or adding to it, proactively and incrementally) for the corner, approaching, at and coming away from the inside curbing.

No, you DON'T aim for it nor should you have to steer towards it. There's enough time and distance in most cars to cross diagonally for the optimal entry into T10.
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Old 08-14-2018, 03:52 AM
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Originally Posted by zzyzx View Post
Does using all of the exit of turn 9, including the exit curbing, have a significant benefit for lap times?
Imo, (Im not a pro racer, only a Laguna Seca lover) if you do not HAVE to use the exit curbing of t9, ..it is because you did wait too much before flooring the right pedal !

T9, is a great turn, I love it. being downhill, i feel like I have a more powerfull car

Last edited by GVA-SFO; 08-18-2018 at 05:09 AM.
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Old 08-14-2018, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ProCoach View Post
Agreed. If you don't reach or lightly use the exit curb at T9, you're holding the apex too long or not going quickly enough. That said, there have been some knarly offs from people AIMING for that, sliding wide and going off. Either to the right or hooking back left.
yep. exactly right . however, its one of those turns that does alow you to over cook it, with a downside of waiting to go to throttle as you slide out to that outer curbing. you need trust in your rear tires to really be able to lean on them as you apply throttle. there is no real change in the steering input you already have, so you need a car that can go to throttle with that amount of steering input, and not be loose.

Originally Posted by mpruden View Post
Good question. Here are my observations. I'm curious what others with more experience here think.

I've improved my lap times by almost using all the track at exit at T9. In my fairly low powered car, I have to consciously get to full throttle much sooner than I think I should at T9 so the car will naturally wash out to the right. All other things being equal, I've found I'm carrying a lot more speed and positioned more inside coming into the T10 breaking zone than the other cars, so it's become a good place for me to pass under braking.

The downside to this approach is that it's harder for me to setup T10. There's a smaller straight between T9-10 than T10-11, so I wonder if some compromise exit of T9 to better optimize T10?
if you have someone in front , driving properly to t-10, you wont have a chance on any braking maneuver, and will only set yourself up for an outside pass going into 11 by someone trailing you. dont think of T9 to T10 as a straight, its a big S turn with a very quick firm trail brake , to set up for the banked T10. this allows for the car to run up to T10 faster, and get on the throttle earlier using the banking and compression. comng at T10 on the inside, sacrifices a tremendous amount of speed and position vs other cars driving the line.

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Old 08-18-2018, 09:10 PM
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can someone throw up a video of the ideal lap?
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Old 08-19-2018, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by stujelly View Post
can someone throw up a video of the ideal lap?
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Old 08-21-2018, 12:30 AM
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Won't ever say that I'm "ideal" - but I think my line is pretty decent and I was in the 1:31s which was within about 0.5 secs of pros (e.g. Jorg Bergmeister, James Sofronas, etc) in similar cars on the same track same day. A couple clean traffic free laps at the beginning of this video.

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Old 08-21-2018, 03:16 AM
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The least I can say is : VERY Impressive !
This is FAST.
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Old 08-21-2018, 03:42 PM
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Some great suggestions here, some not so great. Not all cars are the same, and none of them are perfect objects of physics.

If the goal is to acquire experience and develop skill to fully utilize a car (ranging from a high performance car to a dedicated race car) at Laguna Seca, AND you are amenable to engaging experts with local knowledge, I think Thomas Merrill might be a great choice:

http://thomasmerrillms.com/index.php?/site/

I have not engaged him as a coach but...

His parents are long time PCA members and his father still races a Spec 911. (His father was the President of Friends of Laguna Seca).

I have known him since my first visit to Laguna with the PCA in 1995. The Merills hosted our Saturday Night part at their nearby ranch and it was epic. They still are in the ranching business in the area near the track.

Thomas has helped quite a few Porsche drivers/racers I know.

Internet perspective can be helpful.

Coaching may also be helpful, depending on goals.

In this case, Thomas may be uniquely positioned since he practically grew up there. After recently reviewing a video of him driving a friend's 911 during a DE-based coaching session, I am convinced the he could pilot a little red wagon around there at record speeds.
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Old 08-21-2018, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Mahler9th View Post
Some great suggestions here, some not so great. Not all cars are the same, and none of them are perfect objects of physics.


In this case, Thomas may be uniquely positioned since he practically grew up there. After recently reviewing a video of him driving a friend's 911 during a DE-based coaching session, I am convinced the he could pilot a little red wagon around there at record speeds.
You mean, like a 928?
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Old 08-23-2018, 01:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Mahler9th View Post
Some great suggestions here, some not so great. Not all cars are the same, and none of them are perfect objects of physics.

If the goal is to acquire experience and develop skill to fully utilize a car (ranging from a high performance car to a dedicated race car) at Laguna Seca, AND you are amenable to engaging experts with local knowledge, I think Thomas Merrill might be a great choice:

http://thomasmerrillms.com/index.php?/site/

Thomas has helped quite a few Porsche drivers/racers I know.

Internet perspective can be helpful.

Coaching may also be helpful, depending on goals.

In this case, Thomas may be uniquely positioned since he practically grew up there. After recently reviewing a video of him driving a friend's 911 during a DE-based coaching session, I am convinced the he could pilot a little red wagon around there at record speeds.
+1 - Thomas is great to work with, and really knows how to help you improve. Great coach that happens to live 15mins from LS.
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