Brake failure strategies
#16
Instructor
Goodridge Braided lines are DOT and TUV approved and cost much less than Porsche oem rubber hoses.
#17
Rennlist Member
Those are great questions and many that have done this for a long time have had this happen and either used the "plan" or didnt have one. personally, ive always been very nervous about brake failure, and made a conscience effort to have a "plan".. since, very early on, i learned of the power of the decel forces by downshifting, i made sure that was the first think i ever was going to do., so much so, that near my first thing i do, is hit the brake and immediately grab big blip and a downshift. ive become so used to the fores that if i ever miss a downshift, there is not enough braking to make up for it.... and ill drive the corner wide because of it.............so, first thing you need to do is grab a downshift, assuming you are not at redline.... if so, a pause for a second will get you at a safe RPM to do a downshift... even if it is, a slow release of the clutch can feather the forces to bring the RPM down as well as provide as much braking force as the rear tires can handle. next i like to start thinking "early apex" by turning into the turn early , grab another downshift and then start inducing a push..... you do this by applying more and more steering progressively, so that the back end doesnt follow, and you end up getting a HUGE slip angle of the front tires (a forced push) and that ends up slowing you down, almost like locking up the front tires, so its pretty effective. Ive had the luck to have survived turn 2 laguna seca brake line burst..... and didnt even have to run off into the dirt. sure, a more powerful car , or a turn following an even faster straight, might have not have been that lucky, but using this technique, you can make sure that all the car gets is dirty.
one way to practice this is to do a few , no brake, fast downshifts and turn ins. you get used to it, it wont be unfamiliar if you ever have to use the technique.
MK
one way to practice this is to do a few , no brake, fast downshifts and turn ins. you get used to it, it wont be unfamiliar if you ever have to use the technique.
MK
The tragedy at Mosport got me thinking about this again, but I didn't want to sidetrack that thread. My question to the more seasoned racers out there is, aside the need to have a mentally-practiced brake failure strategy for every corner on the track, what should that be? Obviously if there is available runoff,
it's a matter of getting to it without wiping out the corner workers. But what about no runoff
turns like Laguna T11 or Sears T11? I assume one would just try to get the maximum deflection angle possible on impact? Maybe put the car into a spin to get some friction slowing and roll the dice vs. certain frontal impact? What if it happened entering Laguna T8? Better to go straight into the tires or to steer left and fly into the abyss?
it's a matter of getting to it without wiping out the corner workers. But what about no runoff
turns like Laguna T11 or Sears T11? I assume one would just try to get the maximum deflection angle possible on impact? Maybe put the car into a spin to get some friction slowing and roll the dice vs. certain frontal impact? What if it happened entering Laguna T8? Better to go straight into the tires or to steer left and fly into the abyss?
#18
Rennlist Member
The number one thing is to implement strategies that lessen the likelihood of this occurrence.
One of If which is to, with your left toe, tap the pedal once or twice before the big brake zones to make sure you have pressure.
So many failures have nothing to do with hydraulic failure but are the result of hub bearings going bad or other “pad knockback” causes. The driver goes to the brakes and there’s nothing there, but if they hit it again, it pumps up (because the vehicle is in a straight line) and the brakes work. Good habit. Every pro I know who has experienced failure does this automatically.
Second is have a plan. When Mario Andretti was asked how many straights there are at a track, he said, “an infinite number.”
Also, back in. Better head and neck support.
One of If which is to, with your left toe, tap the pedal once or twice before the big brake zones to make sure you have pressure.
So many failures have nothing to do with hydraulic failure but are the result of hub bearings going bad or other “pad knockback” causes. The driver goes to the brakes and there’s nothing there, but if they hit it again, it pumps up (because the vehicle is in a straight line) and the brakes work. Good habit. Every pro I know who has experienced failure does this automatically.
Second is have a plan. When Mario Andretti was asked how many straights there are at a track, he said, “an infinite number.”
Also, back in. Better head and neck support.
#20
Rennlist Member
Again god bless the driver who lost his life. I amglad someone brought up this topic because i always wondered about checking the brakes, i have tap my brakes before to reposition the pads after running over rumble strips at NJMP but have never did a brake check. As any other racer yes i wanna win but if checking the brakes slows me down a little im ok with it.
Peter i had had a hub go bad on me and every time i would brake the car would spin out, it was weird.
Someone mentioned good neck and head protection, is there anything better than a good helmet and a hans device? Are the lite carbon helmets putting less strain on your neck? IM all for safety and if it means buying a better helmet and missing a day at the track i am in.
Peter i had had a hub go bad on me and every time i would brake the car would spin out, it was weird.
Someone mentioned good neck and head protection, is there anything better than a good helmet and a hans device? Are the lite carbon helmets putting less strain on your neck? IM all for safety and if it means buying a better helmet and missing a day at the track i am in.
#21
Again god bless the driver who lost his life. I amglad someone brought up this topic because i always wondered about checking the brakes, i have tap my brakes before to reposition the pads after running over rumble strips at NJMP but have never did a brake check. As any other racer yes i wanna win but if checking the brakes slows me down a little im ok with it.
Peter i had had a hub go bad on me and every time i would brake the car would spin out, it was weird.
Someone mentioned good neck and head protection, is there anything better than a good helmet and a hans device? Are the lite carbon helmets putting less strain on your neck? IM all for safety and if it means buying a better helmet and missing a day at the track i am in.
Peter i had had a hub go bad on me and every time i would brake the car would spin out, it was weird.
Someone mentioned good neck and head protection, is there anything better than a good helmet and a hans device? Are the lite carbon helmets putting less strain on your neck? IM all for safety and if it means buying a better helmet and missing a day at the track i am in.
#22
Registered User
For the folks that say to tap your brakes on the long straight... Doesn't that pose a risk to the guy just behind you? Any tap hard enough to generate any pressure must have some effect on speed...
Any risk of the guy behind you hitting you?
Or, even if you don't slow down, confusing the guy behind you (EG. Why is he stopping?! Road Debris? Oil? Brake check?)...
Any risk of the guy behind you hitting you?
Or, even if you don't slow down, confusing the guy behind you (EG. Why is he stopping?! Road Debris? Oil? Brake check?)...
#23
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For the folks that say to tap your brakes on the long straight... Doesn't that pose a risk to the guy just behind you? Any tap hard enough to generate any pressure must have some effect on speed...
Any risk of the guy behind you hitting you?
Or, even if you don't slow down, confusing the guy behind you (EG. Why is he stopping?! Road Debris? Oil? Brake check?)...
Any risk of the guy behind you hitting you?
Or, even if you don't slow down, confusing the guy behind you (EG. Why is he stopping?! Road Debris? Oil? Brake check?)...
If there were a risk, no cars would finish Conti races!
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www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
#24
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Another time to check your brakes is at the start of a session or race.
I see the majority of people come blasting out of the pits and the first time they really use their brakes is at the first hard braking zone.
I always accelerate and brake hard several times as I am leaving the pits if there is enough room to do so just to make sure I have good brakes. Also has the benefit of adding heat to the brakes.
I see the majority of people come blasting out of the pits and the first time they really use their brakes is at the first hard braking zone.
I always accelerate and brake hard several times as I am leaving the pits if there is enough room to do so just to make sure I have good brakes. Also has the benefit of adding heat to the brakes.
#25
Rennlist Member
i use a butler seat in the spec racer with side head restraints on the roll bar. Has anyone gone through with any tests comparing the neck restraints. Curious if that would work w the SRF.
#26
Rennlist Member
Another time to check your brakes is at the start of a session or race.
I see the majority of people come blasting out of the pits and the first time they really use their brakes is at the first hard braking zone.
I always accelerate and brake hard several times as I am leaving the pits if there is enough room to do so just to make sure I have good brakes. Also has the benefit of adding heat to the brakes.
I see the majority of people come blasting out of the pits and the first time they really use their brakes is at the first hard braking zone.
I always accelerate and brake hard several times as I am leaving the pits if there is enough room to do so just to make sure I have good brakes. Also has the benefit of adding heat to the brakes.
#27
Three Wheelin'
So I did. Went out for a drive, not on track though. On the road, at sane speeds, the car doesn't care you tap the brakes when on the throttle. No funny reactions ! Next test at the track.
But I do not FEEL anything when I tap the brakes with my left foot ? What am I supposed to feel ? Maybe my left foot is too numb as I do not regularly LFB yet.
But I do not FEEL anything when I tap the brakes with my left foot ? What am I supposed to feel ? Maybe my left foot is too numb as I do not regularly LFB yet.
#28
Originally Posted by bccars
So I did. Went out for a drive, not on track though. On the road, at sane speeds, the car doesn't care you tap the brakes when on the throttle. No funny reactions ! Next test at the track.
But I do not FEEL anything when I tap the brakes with my left foot ? What am I supposed to feel ? Maybe my left foot is too numb as I do not regularly LFB yet.
But I do not FEEL anything when I tap the brakes with my left foot ? What am I supposed to feel ? Maybe my left foot is too numb as I do not regularly LFB yet.
I am not certain though if i had totally lost braked that the way I LFT that I would 100% know.
#29
Rennlist Member
A few weeks ago at a PCA Grattan DE, an M3 lost brakes on the front straight where there is little run off. He pulled the parking brake, which caused a spin and he took out a nice GT4. Both drivers are fine...cars, not so much.
#30
Three Wheelin'
OK, I'll try it out next time on track to see if I can feel a difference in the braking zone with and without Left Foot Tap.
How much time should or shouldn't there be between the LFT en the braking ?
How much time should or shouldn't there be between the LFT en the braking ?
In my E46M3, left foot tap (LFT) doesn't produce any substantial feedback but does provides firmer feel when I get to next braking zone. At top of climbing esses at VIR I am not yet able to LFT so I have some pretty vague feel when i brake at 10 compared to 1 or roller coaster where I am able to LFT in the long straights.
I am not certain though if i had totally lost braked that the way I LFT that I would 100% know.
I am not certain though if i had totally lost braked that the way I LFT that I would 100% know.