LuigiVampa

The premise of many here who are voting for premium brake fluid is that "well, brake fluid is cheap". But it isn't for people who don't have the ability or wherewith-all to do it themselves. Not everyone feels comfortable bleeding their own brakes and this may be an impediment to someone hitting the track for the first time. With CVR the tech is signing off on the tech sheet that the brake fluid has been changed in the last year and is required to put in a date.

Is everyone saying there should be something more? If so, someone reading this thread, and thinking about going to the track for the first time, may put it off. And wouldn't that be a shame because they think they need "premium fluid." If someone is going to the race track for the first time and boiling their brake fluid I wonder how much their instructor values his/her life. I'd never let a green student get anywhere close to that!

Just my $0.02!

txhokie4life

I think it depends on the car, track, and driver. Will it happen, IDK, but I do know that it can and has happened.

I've seen several green students at COTA end their weekend early due to brake issues. COTA is hard on brakes.

Mike

HenryPcar

If the car is well maintained that has fresh brake fluid flushed every 2 years, I don't see how a newbie on his first DE could possibly get into any mishaps on Porsche brakes. It takes a lot to boil the brakes even on regular DOT 4 fluid. I would say the pads, if they are stock, would get all beat up before the fluid boils.

g-50cab

Same with Sebring and most of the green students are not very good a braking - street braking vs track braking is night and day difference.

Over the years I've had probably close to ten students have their day cut short with boiling the brakes. It definitely affects the teaching/confidence process. Seems to happen more with higher weight cars.

Change to a Motul and Endless and it's easy insurance

LuigiVampa

I instructed at Watkins Glen last year with a green student, in a bone stock 944 turbo, and he didn't boil his brakes. The guy was easily the best green student I ever had because of his extensive autocross experience. He had plenty of speed and was aggressively braking. No brake boil with DOT 4 fluid.

Do newer cars boil their fluid more easily?

daylorb

I hear you, although between pads/tires/insurance/helmet/require inspection of said car/etc. it shouldn't be that much as a percentage. I know at COTA the car needs to be fully inspected within 30 days prior to any event - while there have them flush it - can't be more than $150 from an indie.

Maybe I just get too overly excited about HPDE's - I'm always wondering what else I could possibly do to make sure the car works better before I get to one of the few days I'm able to attend. I think about it/plan for it for weeks with my mainly stock ride and if there is one thing I focus on it is making sure nothing is going to get in the way of it stopping!!!

911 Rod

It can't hurt.

ShakeNBake

Might as well not wear your seat belt while you're at it.

Mahler9th

I started doing DE driving in 1987, and I have seen a lot of interesting "developments" in my years in this hobby. Yes this is my 31st year.

I don't think of ATE's blue or gold-colored equivalent as "race fluids." I think of them as great products. No offense to the OP or anyone else that has responded to this thread, but I always question why people try to present, discuss and/or describe absolutes. Braking performance and system robustness is an area where I think the concept of absolutes makes even less sense.

I have seen countless new folks and experienced folks alike screw themselves out of track time because they were not properly prepared. One week ago I helped an experienced SCCA racer bleed the brakes in his V8-powered M3 street car because he was just too lazy (his words) to change out the year-
old fluid he knew was vulnerable. And this was at a track that isn't that hard on brakes.

I do not think advising newbbies to consider putting in fresh fluid or fluid with better specs is inappropriate or overkill.



I hope that folks realize that over-generalizing can lead to poor outcomes for folks just getting into this hobby. I know it can seem over-analytical to always answer "it depends," but I think in many cases, internet forums like this one do not give that response its proper due.

Mahler9th

And I disagree completely that somehow if the instructor is doing his or her job with a new driver in a Porsche, there is no way the fluid can boil. That just makes no sense to me.

raspritz

Mahler9th

Brakes....

My car weighed 2100 pounds with driver, and had about 350-370 bhp. Big sticky 11 and 13 inch wide slicks. ATE Blue and Hawk Blue pads. Wilwood lightweight rotors and 930 rear calipers up front. Ducting through the front bumper. I could go two seasons without ever changing the fluid. New race class... about 30-40 less bhp and about 300 pounds of ballast. Now I need different pads (trying PFC's thanks to Mark at OG Racing) and higher temp fluid (Endless).

Details matter.

It depends.

ShakeNBake

Brake fluid is an interesting part of our hobby. It's really unlikely anyone who is not racing (racing uses/has the braking force for 30min that can generate much more heat than a HPDE) will need fluids with the 600F+ dry boiling points racing fluids tend to have. The problem is that the fluid is designed to protect the braking system, and loves to mate with moisture (hygroscopic). The performance of virtually all non-exotic brake fluids boiling point goes to 300F when slightly wet, and worse there on. The brake caliper is not a closed system, it is the place that moisture gets in, and it's the place closest to the heat generation. So you can see, as fluid gets old, more moisture, lower boiling temp for the fluid at the worst location. As time goes on this gets worse. The moisture does not travel that far because brake fluid is not circulating - which is why bleeding helps. New, Fresh, modern Porsche OEM fluid is plenty good enough for the track. Old fluid, or old racing fluid, is not.

So IMHO there are two classes of options. Flush once a year, and bleed after every event with OEM or ATE fluid -or- put in Castrol SRF (which has a ridiculously high 518F wet boiling point) and don't worry about bleeding. I've run SRF for 10 years in big heavy cars on hoosiers, some with really crappy brakes (BMWs), and I'm pretty darn lazy when it comes to flushing/bleeding. I've never had the fluid boil (knock on wood) because the wet boiling point keeps above the temps I inflict on the car - and that leads me to believe that if you are vigilant and flush/bleed, OEM fluid is fine because 500F is high enough. OLD crusty SRF performs just fine at 500F wet, and similarity to brand new OEM fluid at 500F dry. You probably don't need a 600F+ monster, but if you believe that you do, you better be bleeding vigilantly to get the benefit of the 600F boiling temp. (For me SRF is not a waste given the maintenance/safety benefits for someone with my life style).

See this summary of fluid specs if you are curious.
https://www.lelandwest.com/brake-flu...ison-chart.cfm

LuigiVampa

I think the problem with this thread is most are coming at their conclusions from different places. The OP's original question was basically "do first day green students need racing brake fluid?"

The answers have morphed offline into conversations about when the fluid was last changed, what kind of car, what track, etc.

I've driven in several regions over the years and all of them had some language on their tech sheet that brake fluid had to be changed within the last year. I'm going to assume that is probably standard.

Accordingly, I stand by my statement that all things being equal, a first day green student (as that was the premise of the question) with the required less than a year old brake fluid is going to have a hard time boiling the fluid.

Would it hurt to have fresh fluid and a brake bleed right before the event? That would be great! Would race brake fluid be even better? Of course! But that was not the question.

Bottom line, I am in favor of making someone's first trip to the track as easy AND SAFE as possible. If their car is teched by a good shop all these issues should be taken care of. We don't want to discourage the first timers as it is hard enough to get them to the track.

rlm328

My answer is no. Changing brake fluid will not correct for bad driving habits/technique. Few new drivers have the ability to drive the car anywhere near its limits, if they are relying on their nannies to save their rear ends then they will more than likely wear out the rear pads, and the instructors are not paying attention to what their students are doing. You can boil even the most expensive brake fluid if you are a bad driver.