Racing Seat with Factory Belts
02-15-2018, 10:29 AM
#16
Instructor
Continuing on the topic of using the 3 point belt on street with a racing seat. I'm looking to install a OMP HTE-R into my 996 with harness and rear roll bar. I'd like to retain the 3 point system for the street and keep my stock wheel and airbag. Those two things are designed to work together. Is there anything I should be concerned about driving on the street in a fixed back halo-style seat while using the 3 point belt and airbag as primary safety items vs harness. Mind the obvious increase in blind spot
*i'd never drive on street wearing harness and no hans, bobble head syndrome isnt my goal.
*i'd never drive on street wearing harness and no hans, bobble head syndrome isnt my goal.
02-15-2018, 11:12 AM
#17
Rennlist Member
Continuing on the topic of using the 3 point belt on street with a racing seat. I'm looking to install a OMP HTE-R into my 996 with harness and rear roll bar. I'd like to retain the 3 point system for the street and keep my stock wheel and airbag. Those two things are designed to work together. Is there anything I should be concerned about driving on the street in a fixed back halo-style seat while using the 3 point belt and airbag as primary safety items vs harness. Mind the obvious increase in blind spot
*i'd never drive on street wearing harness and no hans, bobble head syndrome isnt my goal.
*i'd never drive on street wearing harness and no hans, bobble head syndrome isnt my goal.
As far as the fixed back seat goes, intuition says stronger, lighter, and probably more crash worthy should not be a bad thing.
A friend was wearing harnesses with an OEM LWB seat when he impacted the driver's side setting off the air bag. He believes the fact that he was so tightly secured in the seat made the side seat airbag forces much higher on his body breaking ribs and rupturing his spleen. Sometimes these things situations have non-intuitive outcomes.
02-15-2018, 12:57 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
I presently have a fixed back FIA seat and 3 point belts. For a limited time, I’m comfortable this way. I don’t have airbags, so my current setup is not one I’d be comfortable with for a long term.
I don’t plan to get a harness until the car has a cage, and I plan to add both at once.
When adding the seats, my largest concern was in a rollover type event it would keep me more upright, and in that event it would be a bad thing. While the exact kind of rollover needed to make that happen is possible, I consider it quite unlikely.
For a side impact in the old Boxster I expect the new seat to be safer.
My biggest reason for doing it is the stock seats had negligible lateral support and at one point I noticed I was quite fatigued at the end of a DE day - I had been heavily bracing myself with the floor and steering wheel at every corner. That fatigue degraded my driving in the last session and I had to dial it down. I expect that, especially before I took note of it, the fatigue had increased my chances of getting into an accident due to driver error or fatigue. To me that’s a big concern and needs to be addressed.
I don’t plan to get a harness until the car has a cage, and I plan to add both at once.
When adding the seats, my largest concern was in a rollover type event it would keep me more upright, and in that event it would be a bad thing. While the exact kind of rollover needed to make that happen is possible, I consider it quite unlikely.
For a side impact in the old Boxster I expect the new seat to be safer.
My biggest reason for doing it is the stock seats had negligible lateral support and at one point I noticed I was quite fatigued at the end of a DE day - I had been heavily bracing myself with the floor and steering wheel at every corner. That fatigue degraded my driving in the last session and I had to dial it down. I expect that, especially before I took note of it, the fatigue had increased my chances of getting into an accident due to driver error or fatigue. To me that’s a big concern and needs to be addressed.
02-16-2018, 12:50 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
Lots of good track cars out there that you can buy cheaply and still drive to the track in comfort. Mine (not for sale!) for example. You can buy a nicely setup E36 M3 for $10-15k depending on gear. Drives well, comfy, tall people fit, punches well above its weight class on track, easy to fix, cheap to maintain, lots of support. Mine still has AC/heat, radio, cruise, etc. I tow it to the track but its licensed for the street and I could easily drive it...
The E36 M3 is an awesome car. Lots of them run with NASA...Spec Boxster, but they are around $25,000...lots of competition, and they are annoyingly noisy.
When you mix and match safety items such as a race seat with stock belts, you are compromising your safety.
For the larger person the Recaro Profi XL is something to consider. Rennline used to sell a Harness Bar...didn't see it on their website. This seat fits perfectly in a 996 tub.
02-16-2018, 01:33 PM
#20
Instructor
Thread Starter
When you mix and match safety items such as a race seat with stock belts, you are compromising your safety.
For the larger person the Recaro Profi XL is something to consider. Rennline used to sell a Harness Bar...didn't see it on their website. This seat fits perfectly in a 996 tub.
For the larger person the Recaro Profi XL is something to consider. Rennline used to sell a Harness Bar...didn't see it on their website. This seat fits perfectly in a 996 tub.
I understand I'm losing the seat side thorax airbag by going to an SPG XL (compromise) but is there any other detriment to the function of the airbags and seatbelt mechanisms from doing their jobs with the Recaro seat in place?
On another note; I've stumbled across an interesting race car: Legends Thunder Roadster. Anyone have experience with these? The premise sounds awesome; 150 hp detuned Suzuki GSXR1300 (Hayabusa) motorcycle motor with a sequential gearbox weighing 1,500 lbs with driver, full roll cage, fire suppression, containment seat, Hoosier 880 hard tire, parts aplenty and reportedly loads of room for 6 footers. They run NASA and INEX, although there doesn't appear to be a league here in Southern California. Can be open or closed wheel. The lap times looked competitive with most $50-75k sports cars. Not to mentioned those motors are factory rated at 190 hp and handle bigger power upwards of 220 in the motorcycle community! That's gotta be fun...
Cheers - happy weekend all.
02-16-2018, 02:21 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
You’re asking the right questions. The big one is surprisingly not what’s the best race car you can comfortably afford, but what are your goals and/or who do you want to race with.
If you really just want to do trackdays and time trials only your ideal car is quite different from a race car. For example, an Exige is great for time trials but don’t ask about the cost of repairs if somebody scrubs your fender at the start of a race! And would it be much fun to run around the track in a 911 cup car if all the rest of the field were a Corvette, two E36s, and 20 spec miatas? Maybe a Miata would be more fun, right? It depends what you’re looking to do.
So what groups run events near you that you’d race with, NASA, PCA, SCCA, BMWCCA, others? At those events, what cars show up in decent numbers at most of the events you’d attend? Of THOSE cars/classes, what would make you the most excited or where would you have the most fun? It’s not always the fastest or sexiest thing you can afford, hence the popularity of Spec Barbie and Miata. Affordable cars makes for big fields and that makes for a lot of fun.
Thunder roadsters and corvettes are on the very short list for speed per dollar champs when racing with NASA. Older 3 series race cars, spec 944s, and spec Miatas are right there with them and spec Boxster is pretty close as well. And a brand spanking new miata cup car is about $50k.
One of the weaknesses of the roadster is the top speed is quite low and cornering speed is high so depending on who you run with it may be less fun than the lap times imply - with sedans it would be a bit like like running a Miata on slicks in a field of street tire shod corvettes. But the cost and speed are great.
For PCA the spec classes are cheaper and the more you spend the faster you go. Lots of great options but the faster PCA cars aren’t going to win any most-speed-per-dollar awards outside of the PCA fields. The thing is, there’s a lot more to it than just fast laps! It’s all about the experience and what makes it fun for you. I like SPB for now because it fits in well with the local NASA field (it’s not the most competitively classed but many folks here run similar lap times), the rule set is stable, I love a mid-engine car, and it’s really pretty cheap for the fun I’ll have so that makes it easy to not worry so much about the car (very much unlike tracking a street car). NASA runs the most local events for me, and the SCCA and BMWCCA don’t rent our track out.
If you want high speed look into the SCCA and check out apexspeed.com. Lots of different formula classes and a few prototype classes. The 1L motorcycle engine, sub 1000lb, high downforce classes are incredibly quick and not as expensive as you would think to purchase. However, any class with open or somewhat open rules means to win you need an open or somewhat open checkbook to maintain the car in top condition and be (highly) competitive. (And in the big spec classes, at high levels such as nationals that’s true too!) But you’d be better off learning on a grip driven car, and that would steer you towards FF or something like that. And FF is really a great option.
Radicals are great track cars but don’t have a good race group in a lot of areas of the US. They’re too fast to run with slow sedans, don’t have the top end of the fast sedans, and they're too heavy/slow to run competitively with the lighter weight SCCA prototypes. Supposed to be great fun though and if you just want to run laps they’re a great option. Also an ex VdeV prototype from across the pond is a great value if you’re ok sourcing parts as needed.
If you really just want to do trackdays and time trials only your ideal car is quite different from a race car. For example, an Exige is great for time trials but don’t ask about the cost of repairs if somebody scrubs your fender at the start of a race! And would it be much fun to run around the track in a 911 cup car if all the rest of the field were a Corvette, two E36s, and 20 spec miatas? Maybe a Miata would be more fun, right? It depends what you’re looking to do.
So what groups run events near you that you’d race with, NASA, PCA, SCCA, BMWCCA, others? At those events, what cars show up in decent numbers at most of the events you’d attend? Of THOSE cars/classes, what would make you the most excited or where would you have the most fun? It’s not always the fastest or sexiest thing you can afford, hence the popularity of Spec Barbie and Miata. Affordable cars makes for big fields and that makes for a lot of fun.
Thunder roadsters and corvettes are on the very short list for speed per dollar champs when racing with NASA. Older 3 series race cars, spec 944s, and spec Miatas are right there with them and spec Boxster is pretty close as well. And a brand spanking new miata cup car is about $50k.
One of the weaknesses of the roadster is the top speed is quite low and cornering speed is high so depending on who you run with it may be less fun than the lap times imply - with sedans it would be a bit like like running a Miata on slicks in a field of street tire shod corvettes. But the cost and speed are great.
For PCA the spec classes are cheaper and the more you spend the faster you go. Lots of great options but the faster PCA cars aren’t going to win any most-speed-per-dollar awards outside of the PCA fields. The thing is, there’s a lot more to it than just fast laps! It’s all about the experience and what makes it fun for you. I like SPB for now because it fits in well with the local NASA field (it’s not the most competitively classed but many folks here run similar lap times), the rule set is stable, I love a mid-engine car, and it’s really pretty cheap for the fun I’ll have so that makes it easy to not worry so much about the car (very much unlike tracking a street car). NASA runs the most local events for me, and the SCCA and BMWCCA don’t rent our track out.
If you want high speed look into the SCCA and check out apexspeed.com. Lots of different formula classes and a few prototype classes. The 1L motorcycle engine, sub 1000lb, high downforce classes are incredibly quick and not as expensive as you would think to purchase. However, any class with open or somewhat open rules means to win you need an open or somewhat open checkbook to maintain the car in top condition and be (highly) competitive. (And in the big spec classes, at high levels such as nationals that’s true too!) But you’d be better off learning on a grip driven car, and that would steer you towards FF or something like that. And FF is really a great option.
Radicals are great track cars but don’t have a good race group in a lot of areas of the US. They’re too fast to run with slow sedans, don’t have the top end of the fast sedans, and they're too heavy/slow to run competitively with the lighter weight SCCA prototypes. Supposed to be great fun though and if you just want to run laps they’re a great option. Also an ex VdeV prototype from across the pond is a great value if you’re ok sourcing parts as needed.
03-26-2018, 10:06 AM
#22
I run two of the Recaro Profi XL seat in my Boxster, they are both floor mounted with Brey Krause hardware and that gives me some extra headroom which is good for me since I am 6'2", 34" inseam, 36" waist, 240#. It is tricky for me to get them in and out since they are floor mounted with no sliders, but it looks like you have a 911? Which means you have plenty of clearance to get at those back two bolts and so it probably would be a 30 minute or less swap once you've done it a few times. I haven't seen anything in the Bentley manual about those bolts being single use but I do notice that new ones come with threadlocker, so I have been using medium threadlocker on mine. If you buy an extra seat belt receptacle you can bolt make it an easy swap with just the 4 bolts and unplugging the connector. Before I got my roll bar extender and 6 pt belts I ran it with the stock 3 point belt and it was a great improvement.
Last edited by steved0x; 03-26-2018 at 10:06 AM. Reason: typo
03-26-2018, 11:55 AM
#23
Rennlist Member
I run two of the Recaro Profi XL seat in my Boxster, they are both floor mounted with Brey Krause hardware and that gives me some extra headroom which is good for me since I am 6'2", 34" inseam, 36" waist, 240#. It is tricky for me to get them in and out since they are floor mounted with no sliders, but it looks like you have a 911? Which means you have plenty of clearance to get at those back two bolts and so it probably would be a 30 minute or less swap once you've done it a few times. I haven't seen anything in the Bentley manual about those bolts being single use but I do notice that new ones come with threadlocker, so I have been using medium threadlocker on mine. If you buy an extra seat belt receptacle you can bolt make it an easy swap with just the 4 bolts and unplugging the connector. Before I got my roll bar extender and 6 pt belts I ran it with the stock 3 point belt and it was a great improvement.
Using a race seat and a stock 3 point belt is a hassle, if nothing else, getting the male end of the belt into the female receptor. It can be done, but it's difficult. I am big believer in a HANS device. This means I need shoulder belts. There are shoulder belt harnesses, but they provide no roll over protection. There are roll bars that mount to the "B" pillar attachment points...attached by one bolt each side. Then there are roll bars that bolt the hoop to the chassis, and attach to the rear shock towers on the 996. I felt I had to go this way.
I could pull the Profi XL seat in and out, but too much trouble for the present. The car gets minimal street time so I just leave the seats in. BTW, for the larger driver, the Recaro Profi XL seats are nice. and they are easy enough to get in and out of. If you are tall and need extra head room, drive with the bottom seat cushion repaved. Supposedly the Cantrell side mounts provide a little extra room compared to the Recaro side mounts.
Feel better, babble gone!
03-26-2018, 05:49 PM
#24
Rennlist Member
NASA has the same safety standards for TT as HPDE because TT is a subset of HPDE. Is your region writing additional local rules, or are you mistaken on NASA's rule set? Or is my region missing something? They may be permitted to add local/regional rules, no idea there, but if that's happening it's not the case for NASA in general.
To support my claim, here are some rules excerpts:
NASA CCRs: https://nasa-assets.s3.amazonaws.com...282/2018.3.pdf
Section 1.1.1 Terminology and Definitions / Activities / High Performance Driving Event (HPDE): "The terms “School,” “Driving School” [Ref: (1.1.2)], “Open Track”[Ref: (1.1.3)], Time Trials, and Time Attack may be used interchangeably in this publication, except as where noted. Often times, all five terms are “generically” referred to as a “High Performance Driving Event” or (HPDE)."
Page 25, introduction to HPDE rules: Title: "HIGH PERFORMANCE DRIVING EVENT (HPDE)," Subtitle: "(SCHOOL / OPEN TRACK / TIME TRIAL / HYPERDRIVE) "
TT Rules: https://nasa-assets.s3.amazonaws.com...--12-27-16.pdf
Section 13 Safety: "All cars must meet the safety and car preparation standards specified at Section 11 of the NASA CCR. All convertibles must meet the roll bar specifications contained in the CCR for HPDE participation. In addition to the HPDE safety rules, it is highly recommended that all TT vehicles carry a NASA CCR compliant fire extinguisher with a metal mounting bracket (not on the “A pillars”). As well, we encourage all participants to obtain and use as much CCR compliant personal and vehicle safety equipment as possible."
Note that the referenced NASA CCR Section 11 is "HPDE TECHNICAL REQUIREMENTS."
Page 25, introduction to HPDE rules: Title: "HIGH PERFORMANCE DRIVING EVENT (HPDE)," Subtitle: "(SCHOOL / OPEN TRACK / TIME TRIAL / HYPERDRIVE) "
TT Rules: https://nasa-assets.s3.amazonaws.com...--12-27-16.pdf
Section 13 Safety: "All cars must meet the safety and car preparation standards specified at Section 11 of the NASA CCR. All convertibles must meet the roll bar specifications contained in the CCR for HPDE participation. In addition to the HPDE safety rules, it is highly recommended that all TT vehicles carry a NASA CCR compliant fire extinguisher with a metal mounting bracket (not on the “A pillars”). As well, we encourage all participants to obtain and use as much CCR compliant personal and vehicle safety equipment as possible."
Note that the referenced NASA CCR Section 11 is "HPDE TECHNICAL REQUIREMENTS."
03-26-2018, 08:31 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
"I'm not trying to call you out or give you a hard time - I'm planning to go into NASA TT soon-ish and don't have or plan to get harnesses or a full cage quite yet so this is of interest to me." With this being the case, locate your local NASA Tech Station and do a one on one with them, just so you don't get caught in a bind when you show up for the track. I am fairly new to NASA so I am sorting through their regulations, and am in contact with them for clarification on some points.
If you do not want to put a 1/2 cage in your car, and you want to run Time Trial, that's your call. In my case, I decided on a bolt in 1/2 cage, selected the RSS 931 bar, but could have easily gone for the Cantrell or S Car Go. All three (3) bars bolt to the rear shock towers, and the hoop is bolted to the tub. The other bars, such as Tequipment, the hoop bolts to the "B" pillar seat belt bolt, one (1) bolt on each side.That wasn't enough for me. I wanted the bar connected to the chassis by 3 bolts, on each side in the front.
Let's assume you don't want top get tossed around the car, you'll probably get a race seat. I have yet to see a car on the track with a race seat and factory belts. All the cars I have seen have 1/2 cages or harness bars and 5/6 point belts. In the West where I run, PCA TT and Porsche Owners Club TT both require 5/6 point harnesses. Do they require a bar? Never looked into it.,..I wouldn't go out win a track in a late model high speed car without a bar. In February I was at Willow Springs Raceway, and without really trying, I saw 145 on the front straight. Would I go 145 without a race seat and 5/6 point harnesses? Not on my life.
Keep in mind, cars in the Time Trial group, many of them are full on race cars. The competition is intense...lots of really fast BMW M3 cars...it's all weight to HP, so god only knows what will be in your run group. I would stay in HPDE 4 until such time as the car has a 1/2 roll cage. Also note, the three 1/2 cages I mentioned do not restrict rearward travel of the seats if that is a concern to you.
If you plan on tracking a water cooled 996 based car, you would be wise to have the coolant pipes welded up. Without this touch, if you blow a coolant pipe and dump coolant's on the track, you and perhaps other folks are going for a very scary ride. I had my Mezger motor dropped and the coolant pipes welded, budget about $3,000 for this, and add extra for a water pump, a coolant expansion tank, etc.
For the record, I am no NASA expert, just a newly wanting to get art right. I am going to a NASA Tech Station and get the scoop. When I find out, I'll post the info,
If you do not want to put a 1/2 cage in your car, and you want to run Time Trial, that's your call. In my case, I decided on a bolt in 1/2 cage, selected the RSS 931 bar, but could have easily gone for the Cantrell or S Car Go. All three (3) bars bolt to the rear shock towers, and the hoop is bolted to the tub. The other bars, such as Tequipment, the hoop bolts to the "B" pillar seat belt bolt, one (1) bolt on each side.That wasn't enough for me. I wanted the bar connected to the chassis by 3 bolts, on each side in the front.
Let's assume you don't want top get tossed around the car, you'll probably get a race seat. I have yet to see a car on the track with a race seat and factory belts. All the cars I have seen have 1/2 cages or harness bars and 5/6 point belts. In the West where I run, PCA TT and Porsche Owners Club TT both require 5/6 point harnesses. Do they require a bar? Never looked into it.,..I wouldn't go out win a track in a late model high speed car without a bar. In February I was at Willow Springs Raceway, and without really trying, I saw 145 on the front straight. Would I go 145 without a race seat and 5/6 point harnesses? Not on my life.
Keep in mind, cars in the Time Trial group, many of them are full on race cars. The competition is intense...lots of really fast BMW M3 cars...it's all weight to HP, so god only knows what will be in your run group. I would stay in HPDE 4 until such time as the car has a 1/2 roll cage. Also note, the three 1/2 cages I mentioned do not restrict rearward travel of the seats if that is a concern to you.
If you plan on tracking a water cooled 996 based car, you would be wise to have the coolant pipes welded up. Without this touch, if you blow a coolant pipe and dump coolant's on the track, you and perhaps other folks are going for a very scary ride. I had my Mezger motor dropped and the coolant pipes welded, budget about $3,000 for this, and add extra for a water pump, a coolant expansion tank, etc.
For the record, I am no NASA expert, just a newly wanting to get art right. I am going to a NASA Tech Station and get the scoop. When I find out, I'll post the info,
03-26-2018, 09:21 PM
#26
Rennlist Member
Presently I’m in DE3 and that’s appropriate for my skill level. My 986 has race seats, 3 points, no airbags, and the factory roll bar and factory hardtop. I absolutely plan to get a full custom cage - likely next winter - so I won’t get a half cage now. With the full cage will come 6-pt harnesses. I’ll look for an extinguisher and cutoff switch in the meantime.
I’m ok with the present setup (3pt/race seats/OE rollbar and hardtop) as a temporary setup while I continue to build the car. That said, I wouldn’t advocate or be happy with this as a permanent solution for a frequently tracked car.
Here they mix the DE4/TT on track sometimes and DE3/4 other times so with TT I had just figured when I am ready and move to DE4 why not class as TT instead and get lap times while running in the same group. Kind of a soft transition towards racing. Maybe I’ll get the full cage in before I graduate to the DE4/TT/race license level anyway and his will be a moot point!
I’m ok with the present setup (3pt/race seats/OE rollbar and hardtop) as a temporary setup while I continue to build the car. That said, I wouldn’t advocate or be happy with this as a permanent solution for a frequently tracked car.
Here they mix the DE4/TT on track sometimes and DE3/4 other times so with TT I had just figured when I am ready and move to DE4 why not class as TT instead and get lap times while running in the same group. Kind of a soft transition towards racing. Maybe I’ll get the full cage in before I graduate to the DE4/TT/race license level anyway and his will be a moot point!
03-26-2018, 09:45 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
Sounds like you have a plan...work it!
"I absolutely plan to get a full custom cage - likely next winter." Keep in mind, once you have a permanent full cage in the car, you probably should not drive it on the street. If you don't have a helmet on and, God forbid, get "T" boned, you can knock yourself silly. They say there are race cars and there are street cars (with 1/2 cages��) and ir bags, never the twain shall meet.
I have the 1/2 cage and still have airbags. I drive the car on the street...and plan to take the race seat out when I don't have an event on the schedule.
NASA SoCal is very well run...they don't put up[ with any BS, and hold frequent "download" meetings during the day. If you are a "Dick", you are going to get called out...keep it up, and they'll boot you out. So far I haven't been booted out of the 2 to 3 NASA events I ran in 2017.
"I absolutely plan to get a full custom cage - likely next winter." Keep in mind, once you have a permanent full cage in the car, you probably should not drive it on the street. If you don't have a helmet on and, God forbid, get "T" boned, you can knock yourself silly. They say there are race cars and there are street cars (with 1/2 cages��) and ir bags, never the twain shall meet.
I have the 1/2 cage and still have airbags. I drive the car on the street...and plan to take the race seat out when I don't have an event on the schedule.
NASA SoCal is very well run...they don't put up[ with any BS, and hold frequent "download" meetings during the day. If you are a "Dick", you are going to get called out...keep it up, and they'll boot you out. So far I haven't been booted out of the 2 to 3 NASA events I ran in 2017.