Appraiser

I apologize if this has been covered ad nauseam but my searches didn't find these questions specifically. I've ruled out a roll bar - I drive to/from the track and want to keep the rear space for gear, kiddos and weekend trips with the missus. I have standard seats (surf boards really) and have been using a camlock for the past year and it in combination with the shoulder pre-tension trick. It's better than nothing but would love more support. The way I sit during a DE my left knee is jammed up against the door handle and killing me throughout the day, too.

I don't mind swapping the driver seat back and forth - add it to the wheels/pads. Is there a safety concern, and/or PCA legal, to use a fixed back racing seat with the factory 3 point seat belt? I know I'll lose my seat airbag for that time being but am willing to roll the dice on the drive to/from the race track (~300 miles round trip). Maybe this is paranoid to ask but is there any potential danger in repeatedly unbolting/bolting the seat(s) and seat belt anchor? I don't see why if torqued to the right spec and would replace the hardware annually (or sooner?) but would fatigue/stretch be a factor after swapping 6-8 times a year (12-16x tight/loose)?

I imagine a bucket seat with camlock and pre-tension trick would be very supportive (er, restraining) or am I just dreaming up ways to waste money? And while we're at dreaming, any recommendations for a clean way to ditch that damn door handle would be appreciated.

I've sat in a few buckets, I fit comfortably in an SPG XL. Pole Position and EVO are too tight and pinch my hip without letting me get fully seated. I'll try an EVO 2 & 3 for size still. I've got a 38" waist but tall torso. Lastly, I'd still like to have an instructor sit in at times, PCA guidelines stipulates equal restraints which would imply 3 point seat belt on both sides regardless of whatever the driver seat may be, correct?

Doing DE's, starting TT's in May.

Open to any safety tips while we're at it. I'm keeping watch out for a Simpson 3 point Hybrid S. Again at the risk of sounding paranoid/stupid, anyone consider or have experience attaching a Blazecut line under the rear deck lid?

Alright, enough with 20 questions.
Cheers,
Colin

Bill Lehman

My current GT4 and previous Cayman 987.1 had factory "Race Seats". In both cases I retained the 3 point system for street use and have a 6 point for the track. No PCA tech issues.

zedcat

997? Consider the GT2 bucket seats. Suncoast has them on sale. Pricey but plug and play installation, airbags, folding backs for access, and they hold value if you sell them later on.

Appraiser

Yes, a 997.1 c2. The GT2 buckets are beautiful and the right solution but simply too cost prohibitive. I understand there'd be a significant reversion at the end but I can't make that pencil with the missus.

Bill - I'd still be using the 3 point at the track. I'd be swapping out the driver seat the night before. I'm 99% sure it is PCA legal to run a fixed-back bucket seat with the factory 3 point belt and I'm certain it'd get me more support inside the car. But I don't want to assume everything and create a dangerous situation for myself if there is a safety issue running the 3 point belt with a Recaro SPG XL.

BillNye

Without specific testing on hardware identical to what you'd be using, it would be difficult to determine this as a rule. My gut says it wouldn't be an issue, but there are tons of variables that go into the reusability of a fastener.

MFGJR

I'm a hair under six feet, 32" inseam, 38" waist, so long-torso, too. Sparco Evo 2 fits me well. But, they *barely* fit in the 997, with minimal clearance of the bottom bolster vs. the console and the shoulder wing vs. the door. I'm on 996 sliders and Brey Krause side mounts, and I had to use the most-reclined position to get sufficient helmet clearance in my sunroof car. By removing the bottom cushion, I think I can reduce the recline by one hole, but haven't confirmed that yet. So, make sure that whatever seat/mount combination you choose will fit you and the car. If I remember correctly, the Evo 3 is too wide for the car. And, watch the Evo 2 vs. the Evo 2 US...different dimensions, the US is wider but shorter. I really wanted the Sparco Ergo with removable halos, but the size that would fit me is too tall for the car. I couldn't try on any Recaros, so not sure about those.

There's nothing like six point harnesses and not having to brace while braking. If you're already swapping wheels and seats, a bolt-in roll bar is only 10 more bolts... Pay attention to the height of the seat's shoulder belt holes vs. your shoulders, in case you ever want to take this next step. Schroth has good info on proper geometry, etc., which you can find on the HMS website.

Steve Dawson

Colin,

I had the same issues fighting to stay in place during DE driving using stock sport seats and 3-point belts. I replaced the driver's seat with a Recaro Profi SPG seat and it made a tremendous difference. I had used a camlock with the stock seat, but did not need it with the race seat (there was enough friction from threading the belt through the opening in the seat side). The improved support and rigid sides made all the difference - I was more relaxed driving and much less fatigued over the course of a weekend.

I was skeptical this would be legal under PCA rules, but the CDI interpreted "equal restraint" as referring only to the belts. I kept the stock sport seat on the passenger side. The Profi was comfortable enough I could commute to the track (90 minutes) with no issues, so I did not have to swap the seat in and out. Access to rear seats was possible via the passenger side, but was not a concern for me.

That said, I now have a track car with full cage, race seats and 6-point harnesses. That's the ultimate, of course, but the race seat with 3-point was a huge improvement over the stock seats.

Appraiser

We're very close; I'm 6'2, 32" inseam, 38" waist, 240 lbs. I really appreciate your input on this; now I know to skip the Evo 3 and Ergo (looks great!) for size. I think I'm going to stick with the SPG XL if there is not fitment issue as I know it works for my body type. I agree, a six point would be ideal but I'm not convinced a good roll bar is so easy to swap in/out without taking some serious effort (removing all seats, potential to mar interior/break glass, etc.) and I'm turned off by a removable harness truss for anything outside autocross in the event that there is an actual roll over and I'm in a fixed position.

Should the Schroth ASM 4-point (rallye 4 ASM) be approved by Schroth/PCA for the 997 as they have it for the GT4, Spyder and GT3 it would make this much easier. I don't understand why it isn't as it uses factory seat belt mounting points and is FMVSS 209 rated but Schroth never designated the belt to work for the car.

Hi Steve - thanks for responding. This sounds like the solution I'm looking for. I recall the Profi SPG being a very tight fit seat but it's been a long time since I sat in it. Do you find it a tight fit?

I hate to gamble on safety by reusing hardware for the seat swap. I will use new hardware every other swap. According to PET and pelican part numbers 999.075.073.09 ( $3.00 screw) and 211.857.771 ( $3.00 washer) and 999.141.047.01 ( $3.00 torx screw) - that's $18 in new screws.

You fellas keep pointing out the glaringly obvious - I need to get a real race car.

As it happens - I test fitted a Factory Five Racing 1965 Cobra replica Challenge Car last weekend from a friend whose active in the vintage racing community. It's a FFR spec car; the first one in fact, sports everything out of the fox body mustang including the 5.0l and T5 gearbox with a 8.8" rear end and those awesome side pipes - rated at just "250" but they tend to put down closer to 300 in the wheels and weigh only 2,300 lbs. I loved every second of it hell simply being in the presence of the damn car was enough to make me smile. The kicker: there is only one garage space for a toy. Silver lining; my feet (size 15) fit in the pedal box and I have just enough space to feel some semblance of comfort if my arms were in the exact right position, the steering wheel angled up another few degrees, I got a flat-bottom wheel to clear my knees, and I had a fabricator add a hoop extension on top to get my minimum 2" bar clearance. So not exactly a perfect fit but better than a lot of other cars I've tried.






First need to get a bigger house/garage, then a tow vehicle, then a trailer, then the race car.... Or sell the 911, upgrade my wive's SUV to something that can tow and rent uHaul auto trailers.

I just can't bear to sell the 911.

I appreciate all the feedback. Cheers.

Steve Dawson

The regular SPG is narrow. I'm 5'10" and 150# and it is snug (but that's the goal, right?). The proportions and shape work for me and I find it very comfortable. The SPG also comes in an XL, so be aware of the specific model.

Yep, you need a dedicated vehicle. I spent a lot of time tip toeing the crest of the slippery slope (added the race seat and bolt in roll-bar, modified brakes and suspension) and ultimately decided I did not want to risk my original '78 that I had factory-ordered. Instead I bought a retired D-stock club racer and never looked back. Full cage, race seats, six-point harnesses, sweet suspension and no regrets when something breaks. And yes, you'll need a trailer. By the way, how's your tow vehicle search going?

aryork

From a mechanical engineer - no, there is no problem repeatedly bolting/unbolting these bolts for the seats. As long as they are not over-torqued, you should be fine. "Fatigue" literally takes thousands to millions of cycles in general. Think about head bolts - they get "cycled" or loaded every time internal pressure, due to ignition, goes up and down. Lots and lots of cycles, but they are designed to take the load and cycles. There are many examples like this all over the vehicle.

One may argue seats were not designed to be changed out so many times. This is true, but does not mean the bolts were designed as single-use. These bolts are designed to withstand the most severe accidents, not fail, and keep the seat in place. What it does mean is that it is a PITA, especially by yourself!

MFGJR

I'm concerned about helmet clearance, given you're 2" taller than me from the waist up. Race seats on side mounts on sliders always seem to sit higher than you'd think. (Common complaint about the factory LWBs is that they sit higher than the standard seats.) You can claw back some headroom by skipping the sliders, but then you'd need a removable steering wheel. Forgoing the seat's bottom cushion can also yield a little bit of headroom. I DIY'd parts selection and installation, and it was much harder than I expected. If you have a local, qualified shop that can get parts and do the install, it might save you some headaches and expense if you have to try several configurations to find something that works.

If you go with sliders, first gen Audi TT manual sliders are identical to Porsche 996 sliders, and can be purchased new for less money that used 996 parts. Factory 997 sliders are a non-starter.


IIRC, PCA is OK with the Schroth ASM 4-points made specifically for the LWBs whether in a GT3 or a Carrera or a Cayman, but only when used in combination with those factory seats. Admittedly, there's not much practical difference between the Recaro and the factory LWB, and perhaps your local PCA would see it that way. (Uncharted, high risk territory here!) Note, however, that with LWBs, both the inboard and outboard lap belts attach to the side mounts, and the Schroth harnesses are configured as such. I've not found any aftermarket side mounts with provision for lap belt attachment on both sides--my BK side mounts allow for the inboard side, but not the outboard where the base-of-the-B-pillar point is utilized. I'm exploring something here, in order to get better geometry on the outboard lap belt.

I bought a spare set of the bolts that mount the seats to the floor last year, and I had to try quite a number of vendors before I found someone who could get them. So, possibly a supply issue. It's an odd bolt, so maybe difficult to source through one of the fastener suppliers.

Kris Murphy

If you are still in an instructed class, you may run into the equal restraint issue if you do not also have a fixed back seat for the instructor. I know our region would not pass it (I'm the Safety Chair).

BillNye

After I made my post I had a similar thought (specifically with headbolts actually). I will add one thing though, many fasteners are torque to yield and can't shouldn't aren't recommended to be re-used. That said, even some headbolts, which are torque to yield, are "allowed" to be reused 3x.

That's way overkill. If you want to feel good about your self you could get new ones each year. You don't get new lug bolts each time you change wheels, do you? I'd be more concerned about over-torquing and distorting the threads of whatever the fastener is being tightened into (floorpan?). New fasteners will do nothing to prevent or fix that though (unless it's just a nut, which it sounds like it isn't).

docwyte

Lots of good track cars out there that you can buy cheaply and still drive to the track in comfort. Mine (not for sale!) for example. You can buy a nicely setup E36 M3 for $10-15k depending on gear. Drives well, comfy, tall people fit, punches well above its weight class on track, easy to fix, cheap to maintain, lots of support. Mine still has AC/heat, radio, cruise, etc. I tow it to the track but its licensed for the street and I could easily drive it...

Appraiser

Hi Steve, I'm going to commit to the Profi SPG XL, I've sat in it before and it was comfortable and appears to be a better fit for the car compared to the Sparco products.

Now I've got to look into rails and mounting hardware. The lower the better since my big head is already touching the sunroof with the factory surfboard. Also, I assume I'm going to need a durametric to dismiss the airbag/weight sensor warnings by disconnecting the seat. Will dive into this matter soon.

Regarding an eventual tow vehicle: my wife is all for us upgrading the family suv to a Lexus GX 460. I'd like buy a basic V8 pick-up workhorse in 12 months when our Volt lease ends. I'm sure one of those is more likely to happen than the other. Hah!

Were I in your shoes I wouldn't have converted the '78 either. My car isn't nearly as sentimental but my problem is space and lifestyle. It's one (casual) or the other (committed) right now. I'm staying with the 911. And for all my belly aching it is still a fantastic sports car to drive at the race track. I'm on the slippery slope now - it's muddy but sure dang fun! My shopping list still includes; Simpson Hybrid S 3-point, FVD deep sump baffled oil pan, GT2 rear brake ducts, Pagid yellows and a set of Alleggerita wheels with some serious rubber plus the Profi SPG XL. My only gripes with the 997 - PSM doesn't fully deactivate, the throttle response is non-linear, and I know it'll never be as safe or precise as a race car, hah!

This is reassuring to read, thanks!

MF - thanks for the suggestions and sliders tip. I will need the sliders in place - this is troubling to hear. I sat in a 997 with a pole position 5-6 months ago and I recall my head had good clearance to the roof BUT I was not wearing my helmet. I will ask around at the DE next month if I can pop in some seats with a helmet on.

I'll go with Blackbird Fabworx for any issues - Moti has been very kind over the years taking my phone calls to chat about an S2000 I had previously, and he's a talented fabricator. If he can't solve the problem - then that's a helluva problem.

Kris - I will ask the PCAOCR and PCASDR chairs on it. I've been bumped to yellow group TT student per my last instructor but have another DE or two until I'm eligible for a solo permit (est. by May). I'll execute on the seat after I am solo'd - but I'd still like for instructors to sit with and give tips when available/necessary, would it be a region safety issue or at the discretion of the instructor?

I used to keep a new lug bolts every 18 month schedule but have been thinking of dropping it down to 12. I will adopt a similar schedule with the seat hardware.

Doc I hear ya. Prior to the 997 I had been auto crossing an S2000 for 5 years and the car transformed into something too extreme we ended up needing to tow it - which in turn became a logistical nightmare. To boot my wife (girlfriend at the time!) and I couldn't enjoy it for road trips anymore. So I sold it and bought the 911 and we're using it as intended and it's been fantastic, I can't part with it and the memories we're still making with it. I rent a shifter kart every 3 months and have been going to Nordschleife every summer for the past 7 years to putz around in a Swift/BRZ race car with some friends here and there. A race car and all that comes with it has always been the end game for me. Until then I thought I'd try out every California race track once with the 911, just open lapping, to see how I'd like the big tracks. Through PCA DE/TT days it's been an enjoyable way to knock through the list. I've looked at having-my-cake-and-eating-it-too from different angles; building a garage on my in-law's property, using a lift (our ceiling is too low), carport (HOA turned me down: no street access through the front yard). A race car just isn't in the cards until the next house with more space. A next house isn't in the cards until IVF is finally successful. And that's the biggest hold back from a race car; I'm mentally not ready for a competitive year nor commit to that lifestyle. For DE's the Porsche will suffice. I'm saying that like it's a penalty! Yeesh


Thanks again everyone for commenting - I appreciate the input.