People who overstate their driving ability. The reality of correcting oversteer.
02-26-2018, 10:46 PM
#91
Burning Brakes
Thought I was a good/better than average driver until I started coaching part time at the Porsche Experience Center a few years ago. Found out quickly when on the wet, polished concrete low friction circle & polished concrete (no water unless it rains) low friction handing course that I wasn't as good as I thought! The customers all seem to enjoy popping the throttle to induce O/S but really seem to benefit from experiencing weight transfer generated O/S.
02-26-2018, 10:53 PM
#92
Burning Brakes
Are you sure you can say that about all cars? Maybe that is a porsche PSM thing? On vette you can and we do turn off traction control. Only ABS is active. If the PCM had some logic to allow a full lock when you totally lost it how does the car know if you got TC off? The car needs active steering wheel sensor, wheel speed sensors and yaw sensor to know you are out of control. I'm not arguing but trying to learn. I have heard some people complain that you can turn off Porsche PSM and it can come back on if it senses something crazy. If so what Mike says makes sense. I unfortunately know from experience and having the back end of my Vette taken off when I spun with both feet in and instead of leaving the track in a straight line the car fought for grip and ricocheted back into traffic and was introduced to the front end of a BMW. Both feet in is the mantra that started when there was no ABS. It totally makes sense. It seems that it is still followed and still taught but I question the validity of it with ABS. Fortunately it has been a very long time since I have spun off a track.
02-27-2018, 09:05 AM
#93
And I'm really surprised nobody else has mentioned it, but I think the absolute very best way to build muscle memory for oversteer correction is go-karts. Like, the go-kart tracks you've probably take your kids to. (Don't knock it, it's cheap and super fun!) Each kart handles differently, and it's a great exercise at car control and learning to drive around handling issues. If you ask them for their loosest kart, you're almost assured of practicing countersteering in every corner and it will become second nature in a session or two: it's an invaluable skill and those reflexes transfer directly to cars.
Counter-steering kiddy karts at 10mph shares some similarity with countersteer at 70mph in a real car.
But, there is only so much under your control at 70mph, I would think.
So, I think stuff like kiddy karts gives people a false sense of bravado.
(I can correct my way out of anything!!)
02-27-2018, 09:12 AM
#94
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That was kind of the point of my thread.
Counter-steering kiddy karts at 10mph shares some similarity with countersteer at 70mph in a real car.
But, there is only so much under your control at 70mph, I would think.
So, I think stuff like kiddy karts gives people a false sense of bravado.
(I can correct my way out of anything!!)
Counter-steering kiddy karts at 10mph shares some similarity with countersteer at 70mph in a real car.
But, there is only so much under your control at 70mph, I would think.
So, I think stuff like kiddy karts gives people a false sense of bravado.
(I can correct my way out of anything!!)
02-27-2018, 09:14 PM
#95
Drifting
Couter-steering kart-track karts at 10mph (or more realistically 35+mph) is the exact same reflexes as a car, the difference in speed is more mental than anything else. The biggest difference is vehicle handing and the degree of countersteering and throttle necessary to recover, and that's something that also takes practice in that specific vehicle to properly hone so that you don't overcorrect into a tirewall. Unfortunately, it's neither safe nor practical to practice slide recovery at 100mph, but lower speed skid pads and autocross are other great ways to build that skill to increase your chances of a successful recovery when it does happen. Even if you got the reflexes from karting or video games, it's going to really reduce the amount of actual in-car time necessary and your chances of success.
That doesn't mean you can defy the laws of physics, but lots of practice of oversteer recovery (by any method) comes with a lot of firsthand knowledge of FAILURE, many times, and also on what causes that oversteer to begin with, and how to keep it from happening before it even starts. It's going to make you much less likely to get into that sort of situation in the first place. And, realistically, if you're skilled enough to correct oversteer 100% of the time in every go-kart, skidpad, and autocross element, you're probably going to be successful on the track, too.
That doesn't mean you can defy the laws of physics, but lots of practice of oversteer recovery (by any method) comes with a lot of firsthand knowledge of FAILURE, many times, and also on what causes that oversteer to begin with, and how to keep it from happening before it even starts. It's going to make you much less likely to get into that sort of situation in the first place. And, realistically, if you're skilled enough to correct oversteer 100% of the time in every go-kart, skidpad, and autocross element, you're probably going to be successful on the track, too.
02-28-2018, 07:58 AM
#99
That was kind of the point of my thread.
Counter-steering kiddy karts at 10mph shares some similarity with countersteer at 70mph in a real car.
But, there is only so much under your control at 70mph, I would think.
So, I think stuff like kiddy karts gives people a false sense of bravado.
(I can correct my way out of anything!!)
Counter-steering kiddy karts at 10mph shares some similarity with countersteer at 70mph in a real car.
But, there is only so much under your control at 70mph, I would think.
So, I think stuff like kiddy karts gives people a false sense of bravado.
(I can correct my way out of anything!!)
It's really hard to spin the 4k stroke junk you get. The much faster 2 strokes are more inline with performance driving.
I personally hold throttle, counter, catch, and get back into it after the weight has settled. If it's oversteer on entry, atleast on my Z06's, you're better off adding throttle (just very lightly) to add some weight back on the rear end to catch it. I'm sure there's a fancy term for it.
02-28-2018, 03:28 PM
#100
What do you all think of iRacing dirt mode? To me, it actually feels the most true to life for what iRacing offers. It seems like a great way to practice some of the concepts discussed earlier in this thread.
While I would love to get access to a skidpad to work on these skills, it is not always easily accessible. The cost of messing up is so high that I would love to work on these skills. Spending a day at an autocross may also help except the time/reward of autocross with a young family is not always attractive.
While I would love to get access to a skidpad to work on these skills, it is not always easily accessible. The cost of messing up is so high that I would love to work on these skills. Spending a day at an autocross may also help except the time/reward of autocross with a young family is not always attractive.
03-01-2018, 01:12 PM
#101
What do you all think of iRacing dirt mode? To me, it actually feels the most true to life for what iRacing offers. It seems like a great way to practice some of the concepts discussed earlier in this thread.
While I would love to get access to a skidpad to work on these skills, it is not always easily accessible. The cost of messing up is so high that I would love to work on these skills. Spending a day at an autocross may also help except the time/reward of autocross with a young family is not always attractive.
While I would love to get access to a skidpad to work on these skills, it is not always easily accessible. The cost of messing up is so high that I would love to work on these skills. Spending a day at an autocross may also help except the time/reward of autocross with a young family is not always attractive.