Veloce Raptor

Whatever you say.

I don't care about being "right". I care what the data shows delivers faster lap times, and have based my full time occupation on that. There are a number of cars whose power drops dramatically well before red line. Going to red line in those cars does not necessarily yield faster lap times. In other cars, the power peak is much closer to redline, and it is much faster thus to wind them out. It's as simple as that.
If you prefer to believe otherwise, go right ahead. My hundreds of clients including two dozen PCA Club Racing National Champions may disagree with your iron clad all or nothing rule. It's not iron clad and it's not all or nothing as you portray.

mark kibort

I could care less of your experience in what you see. it doesnt mean you know the cause. clearly you dont understand the basics here. you mentioned 3 cars (porsche GT3RS, Viper and 996) for which i posted the dyno runs.
all showing that redline is optimal for fastest acceleration. I've shown the only car that pays to shift short of redline , the 928 and a 911 .........but NONE , paying to shift at or before max HP as you made a point to say. whether you want to believe it or not, the name of the game is maximizing HP, PERIOD. all you need to do is look at a dyno run, and use the gear spacing to figure out the shift points. then, if you dont see improvement on the track, look for other reasons. observation , doesnt constitute causation. this will help your ability to help your clients. you dont buy into what ive told you here and your clients competitors will have the edge.

Wild Weasel

Right. We've discussed that there are exceptions to the rule and described how you can recognize them from their power charts.

You said that one should shift at or even before peak power though. I can't come up with a single scenario where that makes any sense at all unless peak power is at redline.

Veloce Raptor

I said before redline, above. Not peak power.

HUGE difference

Sometimes shifting at redline IS faster, as I said.

Sometimes it just SOUNDS faster.

mark kibort

dave , How soon we forget. there are some cases, and we have discussed them here before where shifting before redline is better. when average hp is improved, short shift, but NEVER before max HP and soon after it. usually well past it , even if it isnt to redline. see charts ive posted above.
if you recant the below statement of yours, we can move on!

Wild Weasel

Mark has the quote in his post where you said peak power.

I'm not trying to antagonize here. I'm certain you're a great driver and know how to wring the most out of a car. I'm not suggesting you do it wrong. I just have a feeling that you do it really well on instinct and don't quite realize what you're doing or aren't very good at describing it here. You're contradicting your own statements. If you worded it wrong before, then so be it. That makes sense to me.

We're in agreement that sometimes it makes sense to shift before redline. This thread has dyno charts showing examples of where that makes sense. It's the exception to the rule. There's no example where you shift before peak power though, but I think you're agreeing with us there now.

It's the nerd part of me that wants to ensure the facts are set out correctly here though so people aren't misled.

Veloce Raptor

I can't see anything Mark posts. I and hundreds of other people have him blocked. Read everything I posted in this thread.

mark kibort

Yes, its all about staying true to the facts! He is Red, he should know the difference between facts, fake news and feelings.

sounds like you get it now. yes, we have shown here when the HP curve peak is a big arc, and the gears are close enough, it pays to short shift from redline. also, that same car with a wider gear change, might also still need to be redlined to extract the most from the engine for acceleration. you just need to recant that statement you have been standing by for years about "shifting at or before redline" being faster, because it never is... but, if you can provide an example, that would be interesting to see and discuss

mark kibort

There.. again, how soon we forget. FROM THIS THREAD

Wild Weasel

This. This is wrong.

That makes this a bizarre conversation then as he's replying directly to what you're saying.

I'm gonna duck out though. I've said my part. I don't want to get into an argument. The point you made... that sometimes you'd want to shift before or at peak power, is the part I was arguing against but you've already conceded that was wrong so I think we're on the same page now. This discussion was never supposed to be an argument over opinions. The fact is that in most cars you want to shift at redline. Examples have been explained where you might shift before red line if the power drops off considerable to below where you'd be in the next gear. There are no instances where you'd shift before or at peak power. These are all facts that we agree on and all anyone needs to know on this topic. There's more education to be had on that middle scenario, but that's beyond the scope of this discussion and is the exception to the rule.

Veloce Raptor

Actually you're wrong. Some cars wind up so fast that a shift a millisecond before peak power actually happens well after by the time the next gear engages.
As I said there is no ironclad all or nothing rule. It all depends...and the in car data is all that matters

Wild Weasel

See... now you're just nit-picking based on feel. You're still actually shifting after. You're still trying to shift after. You just know that in order to do the shift after you need to initiate the motion before.

Veloce Raptor

So?

Wild Weasel

So you're wrong. You're not actually shifting before. You're just starting the motion before.

Obviously if you start the motion later, you'll slam into the rev limiter because you didn't shift in time.

This whole discussion is about when you want the shift to happen. Not about when you start thinking about the shift happening.

NYoutftr

I guess this is the old fashion way, but based on all the opinions and facts presented.
I could do this on a trial and error until the quickest time is produced.
Fast forward to 1:35, it is the meat of the video (you can hear the 5000 rpm launch control from Evoms Stage IV tune)