How age affects speed...
12-31-2017, 09:10 AM
#46
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IMO, most PCA DE instructors teach you the safe line for each corner because they want "to be safe" in the right-side seat and this is SOP when you move up the ladder in the instructed groups to earning solo group. DE is a "social" not racing.
Hire a professional coach for your DE event to learning the "racing line" because the corner in, apex, and corner exit dynamics is car specific dynamics, low HP to weight vs high HP to weight and car suspension.
Hire a professional coach for your DE event to learning the "racing line" because the corner in, apex, and corner exit dynamics is car specific dynamics, low HP to weight vs high HP to weight and car suspension.
Last edited by T&T Racing; 12-31-2017 at 09:12 AM. Reason: Correct grammar
12-31-2017, 10:42 AM
#47
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If only to lay a firm, tried and tested foundation, as well as a periodic refresher, every serious student of the sport should go through a top, recognized and FULL-duration (minimum of two days, preferably three to five day) professional school.
IMO, most PCA DE instructors teach you the safe line for each corner because they want "to be safe" in the right-side seat and this is SOP when you move up the ladder in the instructed groups to earning solo group. DE is a "social,” which is (or should be) a great part of racing, too.
Hire a professional coach for your DE event to learn the the best execution of fundamental skills, and hopefully validate how well you do that, objectively. This will allow the most efficient driving around the track, good for both DE and (more) competitive events.
Hire a professional coach for your DE event to learn the the best execution of fundamental skills, and hopefully validate how well you do that, objectively. This will allow the most efficient driving around the track, good for both DE and (more) competitive events.
12-31-2017, 10:56 AM
#48
Drifting
(don't know why I'm not able to reply to posts in a thread now.......
)
To Akunob's post:
"Great post, could you please elaborate on what some of these 'DE habits' were that you had to unlearn? Second, would you say that those early habits/techniques taught at DE's were appropriate for the setting (I.e, DE's) but not suitable for racing? Basically I'm asking whether the more advanced, proper 'habits'/techniques you have since learned would be appropriate in a DE setting?"
Personally, I didn't really have to unlearn any DE habits before I started racing as I only attended one DE before going racing. I had to unlearn bad habits/techniques learned in SCCA Drivers Schools
IMHO, and from 20 years of SCCA racing, the difference between DE's and racing is huge. I like to say Racing is to DE's as DE's are to Autocrosses. However, that doesn't mean the things you may learn at a DE are not applicable to racing and vice versa. I would say the safe (conservative school line) habits/techniques learned at some DE's are fine if you're comfortable with them. To paraphrase Texas RS ......what and how you learn depends a lot on your instructor. Nothing wrong with being safe, having fun, and driving at your own pace.
But if you want to progress and go faster and get the most out of yourself and your car, then you might have to un/learn some different habits/techniques. For example, if you are taught the right (fast) line at a DE and not the conservative school line (as ProCoach so aptly points out) you have the basis for turning a fast lap - and that's what you need for a good qualifying lap. However, much of that goes out the window in an actual race as situations change lap to lap and even corner to corner. That's why racing is completely different from DE's. Would proper advanced habits/techniques be appropriate for a DE? - I think absolutely. I use them all the time which is why my lowly, basically stock 996 keeps up with much "faster" cars at a DE. I watch other slower drivers in "faster" cars and their lines are usually the conservative school lines in half the corners .
Hope this touched upon your question and maybe helped a little.
Cheers.
)To Akunob's post:
"Great post, could you please elaborate on what some of these 'DE habits' were that you had to unlearn? Second, would you say that those early habits/techniques taught at DE's were appropriate for the setting (I.e, DE's) but not suitable for racing? Basically I'm asking whether the more advanced, proper 'habits'/techniques you have since learned would be appropriate in a DE setting?"
Personally, I didn't really have to unlearn any DE habits before I started racing as I only attended one DE before going racing. I had to unlearn bad habits/techniques learned in SCCA Drivers Schools
IMHO, and from 20 years of SCCA racing, the difference between DE's and racing is huge. I like to say Racing is to DE's as DE's are to Autocrosses. However, that doesn't mean the things you may learn at a DE are not applicable to racing and vice versa. I would say the safe (conservative school line) habits/techniques learned at some DE's are fine if you're comfortable with them. To paraphrase Texas RS ......what and how you learn depends a lot on your instructor. Nothing wrong with being safe, having fun, and driving at your own pace.
But if you want to progress and go faster and get the most out of yourself and your car, then you might have to un/learn some different habits/techniques. For example, if you are taught the right (fast) line at a DE and not the conservative school line (as ProCoach so aptly points out) you have the basis for turning a fast lap - and that's what you need for a good qualifying lap. However, much of that goes out the window in an actual race as situations change lap to lap and even corner to corner. That's why racing is completely different from DE's. Would proper advanced habits/techniques be appropriate for a DE? - I think absolutely. I use them all the time which is why my lowly, basically stock 996 keeps up with much "faster" cars at a DE. I watch other slower drivers in "faster" cars and their lines are usually the conservative school lines in half the corners .
Hope this touched upon your question and maybe helped a little.
Cheers.
12-31-2017, 08:09 PM
#49
For me, having just turned 69 and still driving and my F prod Mazda in SCCA the most difficult thing for me is now is overcoming
"self doubt"......not to mention that ever lingering quote from Mario who once wrote "the older I get the faster I used to be".
When will come the time, I will become a danger to myself and others?
I'm hoping that when that day comes and I fail (or refuse) to recognize it, my fellow competitors will take me aside and tell me "its time" to step aside.
ITMT, I will try to continue to stay one step ahead of "father time.
Regards and Happy New year
Tom B.
"self doubt"......not to mention that ever lingering quote from Mario who once wrote "the older I get the faster I used to be".
When will come the time, I will become a danger to myself and others?
I'm hoping that when that day comes and I fail (or refuse) to recognize it, my fellow competitors will take me aside and tell me "its time" to step aside.
ITMT, I will try to continue to stay one step ahead of "father time.
Regards and Happy New year
Tom B.
01-01-2018, 10:28 AM
#51
I would like to start 2018 by thanking all the PCA instructors for their dedication to our hobby/sport over the years and wish them a safe 2018, as they continue hopping into cars with the new breed of noobs with 580HP turbos and 670HP C7 Corvettes...To the pro coaches, it's always great meeting, talking and in some instances working with you at the occasional HPDE event (e.g WGI) and for that thanks as well.
01-01-2018, 10:34 AM
#52
(don't know why I'm not able to reply to posts in a thread now.......)
To Akunob's post:
"Great post, could you please elaborate on what some of these 'DE habits' were that you had to unlearn? Second, would you say that those early habits/techniques taught at DE's were appropriate for the setting (I.e, DE's) but not suitable for racing? Basically I'm asking whether the more advanced, proper 'habits'/techniques you have since learned would be appropriate in a DE setting?"
Personally, I didn't really have to unlearn any DE habits before I started racing as I only attended one DE before going racing. I had to unlearn bad habits/techniques learned in SCCA Drivers Schools
IMHO, and from 20 years of SCCA racing, the difference between DE's and racing is huge. I like to say Racing is to DE's as DE's are to Autocrosses. However, that doesn't mean the things you may learn at a DE are not applicable to racing and vice versa. I would say the safe (conservative school line) habits/techniques learned at some DE's are fine if you're comfortable with them. To paraphrase Texas RS ......what and how you learn depends a lot on your instructor. Nothing wrong with being safe, having fun, and driving at your own pace.
But if you want to progress and go faster and get the most out of yourself and your car, then you might have to un/learn some different habits/techniques. For example, if you are taught the right (fast) line at a DE and not the conservative school line (as ProCoach so aptly points out) you have the basis for turning a fast lap - and that's what you need for a good qualifying lap. However, much of that goes out the window in an actual race as situations change lap to lap and even corner to corner. That's why racing is completely different from DE's. Would proper advanced habits/techniques be appropriate for a DE? - I think absolutely. I use them all the time which is why my lowly, basically stock 996 keeps up with much "faster" cars at a DE. I watch other slower drivers in "faster" cars and their lines are usually the conservative school lines in half the corners .
Hope this touched upon your question and maybe helped a little.
Cheers.
)To Akunob's post:
"Great post, could you please elaborate on what some of these 'DE habits' were that you had to unlearn? Second, would you say that those early habits/techniques taught at DE's were appropriate for the setting (I.e, DE's) but not suitable for racing? Basically I'm asking whether the more advanced, proper 'habits'/techniques you have since learned would be appropriate in a DE setting?"
Personally, I didn't really have to unlearn any DE habits before I started racing as I only attended one DE before going racing. I had to unlearn bad habits/techniques learned in SCCA Drivers Schools
IMHO, and from 20 years of SCCA racing, the difference between DE's and racing is huge. I like to say Racing is to DE's as DE's are to Autocrosses. However, that doesn't mean the things you may learn at a DE are not applicable to racing and vice versa. I would say the safe (conservative school line) habits/techniques learned at some DE's are fine if you're comfortable with them. To paraphrase Texas RS ......what and how you learn depends a lot on your instructor. Nothing wrong with being safe, having fun, and driving at your own pace.
But if you want to progress and go faster and get the most out of yourself and your car, then you might have to un/learn some different habits/techniques. For example, if you are taught the right (fast) line at a DE and not the conservative school line (as ProCoach so aptly points out) you have the basis for turning a fast lap - and that's what you need for a good qualifying lap. However, much of that goes out the window in an actual race as situations change lap to lap and even corner to corner. That's why racing is completely different from DE's. Would proper advanced habits/techniques be appropriate for a DE? - I think absolutely. I use them all the time which is why my lowly, basically stock 996 keeps up with much "faster" cars at a DE. I watch other slower drivers in "faster" cars and their lines are usually the conservative school lines in half the corners .
Hope this touched upon your question and maybe helped a little.
Cheers.
01-14-2018, 12:31 PM
#53
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Interesting topic.
A point to be considered is the level a driver is aspiring to reach. The vast majority of people who come to DE, under say age 70, can become decent drivers in about 25 to 100 track days (about 40 to 200 hours), where "decent" means an upper DE run group, a lap time within several seconds of the capability of the car, much more skill and pace than the average driver with no track experience, and the ability to "instruct." That's not a lot of time investment to get pretty good at something which is a lot of fun, so maybe no surprise that the DE business is going well.
But like most sports, reaching higher levels is increasingly more difficult and tends to involve diminishing returns as more time and effort is invested, and age is more likely to become a factor. Regardless of motivation, I doubt that we'll ever see an F1 WDC over age 50 in cars that are generating over 4 G, lap after lap for over an hour. Comparing with other sports, there are few (if any) sports where older people become or remain competitive at the most elite levels.
A point to be considered is the level a driver is aspiring to reach. The vast majority of people who come to DE, under say age 70, can become decent drivers in about 25 to 100 track days (about 40 to 200 hours), where "decent" means an upper DE run group, a lap time within several seconds of the capability of the car, much more skill and pace than the average driver with no track experience, and the ability to "instruct." That's not a lot of time investment to get pretty good at something which is a lot of fun, so maybe no surprise that the DE business is going well.
But like most sports, reaching higher levels is increasingly more difficult and tends to involve diminishing returns as more time and effort is invested, and age is more likely to become a factor. Regardless of motivation, I doubt that we'll ever see an F1 WDC over age 50 in cars that are generating over 4 G, lap after lap for over an hour. Comparing with other sports, there are few (if any) sports where older people become or remain competitive at the most elite levels.
01-14-2018, 02:11 PM
#54
Rennlist Member
Having gone through the PCA and BMW CCA DE programs, and progressing to PCA National DE Instructor, and now racing, the biggest difference I see between the DE approach and racing is braking.
DE programs teach people to safely navigate their car in a consistent smooth manner. I think this is healthy and correct.
In racing, the transition from gas to brake is instantaneous, not smooth. Hard on and smooth off. (for slow corners, not sweepers)
The other difference is the necessity to drive offline while racing, while DE has a huge focus on line.
As i have said before, DE is a great starting point, but once the bug has hit you, hire a professional coach.
DE programs teach people to safely navigate their car in a consistent smooth manner. I think this is healthy and correct.
In racing, the transition from gas to brake is instantaneous, not smooth. Hard on and smooth off. (for slow corners, not sweepers)
The other difference is the necessity to drive offline while racing, while DE has a huge focus on line.
As i have said before, DE is a great starting point, but once the bug has hit you, hire a professional coach.
01-15-2018, 06:44 AM
#55
Rennlist Member
I can say that as I’ve gotten older that,....wait, what am I talking about again?
01-17-2018, 10:00 PM
#56
Rennlist Member
Art Pilla was a great driver and a great guy.I remember him in his 935 at Bridgehampton. it was an awesome site watching him do low 150s! the first time I saw him in that car I was simply in awe!That was back in the mid 90's!
The last time we saw Art was at Watkins Glen he had driven his 964 Turbo out to the Glen event by himself!My wife and I saw him coming out from dinner.I was saddened he had eaten by himself. when he took ill his daughter notified local car clubs and she took him out to the end of the driveway as hundreds of car people drove by to pay their respects to him. Doesn't matter what age we are always car guys!
https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-a...art-pilla.html
Oh and on the age thing .... Im getting faster not older! I am as motivated now as ever!
Age is a matter of mind .It only matters if you mind!
The last time we saw Art was at Watkins Glen he had driven his 964 Turbo out to the Glen event by himself!My wife and I saw him coming out from dinner.I was saddened he had eaten by himself. when he took ill his daughter notified local car clubs and she took him out to the end of the driveway as hundreds of car people drove by to pay their respects to him. Doesn't matter what age we are always car guys!
https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-a...art-pilla.html
Oh and on the age thing .... Im getting faster not older! I am as motivated now as ever!
Age is a matter of mind .It only matters if you mind!
01-18-2018, 09:26 AM
#57
Rennlist Member
Great article - I’m glad there is hope for us old farts:
All 3 experts I agree: The biggest difference in our performance as we age is because of change in motivation. As we age, we are not always willing to put in the work to improve. This might be because there is no need – the person is already “set” in life; it might be because the effort it takes is more than they are willing to put in. The fact is, if we are not willing to do what it takes to improve, we won’t. This holds true at all levels – whether we are trying to be the absolute best at our chosen motorsport, or just improve our skills from their current level.
All 3 experts I agree: The biggest difference in our performance as we age is because of change in motivation. As we age, we are not always willing to put in the work to improve. This might be because there is no need – the person is already “set” in life; it might be because the effort it takes is more than they are willing to put in. The fact is, if we are not willing to do what it takes to improve, we won’t. This holds true at all levels – whether we are trying to be the absolute best at our chosen motorsport, or just improve our skills from their current level.
01-20-2018, 02:47 PM
#60
For me, having just turned 69 and still driving and my F prod Mazda in SCCA the most difficult thing for me is now is overcoming
"self doubt"......not to mention that ever lingering quote from Mario who once wrote "the older I get the faster I used to be".
When will come the time, I will become a danger to myself and others?, I will try to continue to stay one step ahead of "father time.
"self doubt"......not to mention that ever lingering quote from Mario who once wrote "the older I get the faster I used to be".
When will come the time, I will become a danger to myself and others?, I will try to continue to stay one step ahead of "father time.