Unawareness/Sloppiness at Sears Point
09-15-2017, 11:34 AM
#76
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Just asking the question...
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09-15-2017, 11:52 AM
#77
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Why are you so abrasive sometimes, Scott? The guy has raised some good points and is ASKING QUESTIONS, not acting like a know-it-all.
The whole "just racing," "$#it happens" and "there are always going to be bad people, but a majority are good" is just a rationalization for officials, organizations and cultures not articulating expected behavior well enough, enforcing their existing rules in a even, consistent and impartial manner and ultimately FAILING their participants and their organization's mission.
As long as this stuff (generically stated, NOT this particular instance) is allowed to continue or be excused, people will drive with less margin, poorer judgement and more entitlement. There is plenty of data to support the decline in driving standards... Everywhere...
I have sat in MANY PCA Club Racing Rookie Orientations and have heard scrut's tell the group on more than one occasion "PCA Club Racing has fewer accidents than any other group" and "the incident rate has been going down over time" when three days later, we're all in the paddock reviewing the significant number of cars brought in on the flatbed with damage, some multi-car. The data does NOT support these statements. Period. You could substitute NASA, HSR or SVRA for PCA Club Racing in the above sentence and it's the same deal, so this is not a slam on any ONE group.
It's going to have to change to get better. Whether it's participants quicker to report concerning on-track behavior, tighter enforcement of contact rules (and NOT loosening them, as in "you can continue after contact until the end of the race" or "No 13/13 for GT4 CS"), or even officials acting PROACTIVELY to park people BEFORE concerns potentially turn into contact incidents, SOMETHING will have to change for this to get better and TRULY drop the incident rate.
Four or five years ago, I rarely, if ever, saw a car to car incident in track days or DE's. Now, much more common. This is NOT limited to "racing."
This is a problem, whether you guys want to explain it away. Or not.
The whole "just racing," "$#it happens" and "there are always going to be bad people, but a majority are good" is just a rationalization for officials, organizations and cultures not articulating expected behavior well enough, enforcing their existing rules in a even, consistent and impartial manner and ultimately FAILING their participants and their organization's mission.
As long as this stuff (generically stated, NOT this particular instance) is allowed to continue or be excused, people will drive with less margin, poorer judgement and more entitlement. There is plenty of data to support the decline in driving standards... Everywhere...
I have sat in MANY PCA Club Racing Rookie Orientations and have heard scrut's tell the group on more than one occasion "PCA Club Racing has fewer accidents than any other group" and "the incident rate has been going down over time" when three days later, we're all in the paddock reviewing the significant number of cars brought in on the flatbed with damage, some multi-car. The data does NOT support these statements. Period. You could substitute NASA, HSR or SVRA for PCA Club Racing in the above sentence and it's the same deal, so this is not a slam on any ONE group.
It's going to have to change to get better. Whether it's participants quicker to report concerning on-track behavior, tighter enforcement of contact rules (and NOT loosening them, as in "you can continue after contact until the end of the race" or "No 13/13 for GT4 CS"), or even officials acting PROACTIVELY to park people BEFORE concerns potentially turn into contact incidents, SOMETHING will have to change for this to get better and TRULY drop the incident rate.
Four or five years ago, I rarely, if ever, saw a car to car incident in track days or DE's. Now, much more common. This is NOT limited to "racing."
This is a problem, whether you guys want to explain it away. Or not.
I spoke about an increase in incidents at track days and DE's over the last few years.
It's a reinforcing data point that most of "the best" DE programs and track day programs DO A BETTER JOB inculcating the expected behavior, culture and penalties for not complying.
More so, they HOLD ACCOUNTABLE their participants through the collected observations of corner workers, event officials, instructors and participants, hence more personal responsibility is demonstrated, better judgment is encouraged and generally, less incidents occur. A more positive outcome.
It's no surprise that the programs spoken of in the most positive light fulfill these responsibilities to themselves and to their participants well.
It CAN be done, and done well. But, it's going to take organizers becoming "comfortable becoming uncomfortable" by following through on holding errant drivers accountable and parking them or excluding them. It's an unpleasant job, but a necessary one.
09-15-2017, 12:03 PM
#78
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Just an FYI and my .02 cents- First off- Yes that white Porsche should be banned.
Many of us in NASA will not Run with the Norcal NASA group. This is why PRC and other clubs run their own group within NASA. That creates other problems for NASA Norcal members.
NASA Norcal is known as the "Chumpcar" NASA Region for many reasons. One reason is they sell out too many run groups to other race groups/organizations every race weekend (PRC, Pirelli, UTSCC etc). They then dump the real "NASA" members into 2 run groups. My last experience with them they had Super Unlimited through Legend racecars (with Hondas, Thunder Roadsters, Norma's, Ginetta's, Mustangs etc) there were over 60 cars with very different closing speeds out on the track at the same time.
I gave up my Championship NP01 points lead by not racing the Sonoma NASA Prototype Series race with NASA Norcal a couple months ago, by choice (We travel to different regions for the series). Good thing I did, because they did the same thing group wise and a couple NP01's suffered damage.
NASA Socal runs such a better show. The Nationals are with Norcal this year- I'm surprised they did not sell out more run groups to other clubs.....
Many of us in NASA will not Run with the Norcal NASA group. This is why PRC and other clubs run their own group within NASA. That creates other problems for NASA Norcal members.
NASA Norcal is known as the "Chumpcar" NASA Region for many reasons. One reason is they sell out too many run groups to other race groups/organizations every race weekend (PRC, Pirelli, UTSCC etc). They then dump the real "NASA" members into 2 run groups. My last experience with them they had Super Unlimited through Legend racecars (with Hondas, Thunder Roadsters, Norma's, Ginetta's, Mustangs etc) there were over 60 cars with very different closing speeds out on the track at the same time.
I gave up my Championship NP01 points lead by not racing the Sonoma NASA Prototype Series race with NASA Norcal a couple months ago, by choice (We travel to different regions for the series). Good thing I did, because they did the same thing group wise and a couple NP01's suffered damage.
NASA Socal runs such a better show. The Nationals are with Norcal this year- I'm surprised they did not sell out more run groups to other clubs.....
09-15-2017, 12:10 PM
#79
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That is CRAZY...
09-15-2017, 12:41 PM
#80
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There is a group that runs with nasa where its basically all comer. There were the characteristic NASA, overly agresive /unaware types and there were good drivers too.
over all, it was a safe weekend.
you cant let one driver spoil the entire reputation of NASA. i think its ok to judge the porsche for doing some thing incredibly careless and dangerous, RIGHT in front of the start finish line on the race incident video. and I do think NASA needs to do a little more in informing the racers that this kind of racing is not tolerated, no matter what kind of car you drive. Ive seen this in POC, PRC, PCA, SCCA, and most frequently in DE back in the day. racing clubs are not immune to these types of drivers. how they handle it is up to the club and will generate the best changes if deal with firmly and publicly
Here is my last NASA start video a few years ago. you can see the mustang has this "unawareness, calabunga " feel to him. (after turn4 on the start) we start cutting/lapping through the Thunder-whatevers" which are almost small open wheelers, at about 7min.
over all, it was a safe weekend.
you cant let one driver spoil the entire reputation of NASA. i think its ok to judge the porsche for doing some thing incredibly careless and dangerous, RIGHT in front of the start finish line on the race incident video. and I do think NASA needs to do a little more in informing the racers that this kind of racing is not tolerated, no matter what kind of car you drive. Ive seen this in POC, PRC, PCA, SCCA, and most frequently in DE back in the day. racing clubs are not immune to these types of drivers. how they handle it is up to the club and will generate the best changes if deal with firmly and publicly
Here is my last NASA start video a few years ago. you can see the mustang has this "unawareness, calabunga " feel to him. (after turn4 on the start) we start cutting/lapping through the Thunder-whatevers" which are almost small open wheelers, at about 7min.
09-15-2017, 12:59 PM
#81
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I know very little compared to all of you concerning racing.
I know that.
And you're right, I should stick to DE for now. If I don't understand what I saw in that video, then maybe racing is not my thing.
Thanks for the advice.
Sorry I upset you. A know it all is the last thing I am. Sorry.
I know that.
And you're right, I should stick to DE for now. If I don't understand what I saw in that video, then maybe racing is not my thing.
Thanks for the advice.
Sorry I upset you. A know it all is the last thing I am. Sorry.
It really pisses me off when all certain people can offer is doom and discouragement.
I LOVE getting someone new involved in either DE or racing. I wrote a few articles for the CVR newsletter about my being a newbie to racing a few years back and I had a handful of people tell me those articles encouraged them to race. I take such pride in that fact.
Keep asking your questions and keep thinking about advancing.
09-15-2017, 01:04 PM
#82
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Thank you for proving my point. The NASA group at a NASA event should not be "All Comer". It is a NASA event in every term. When does a NASA region not become a NASA member Region? What happens is Norcal NASA decides to sell 2 run groups- 1 to PRC and say another to Pirelli Porsche Cupcar- What does that do to the REAL NASA members? It bunches them up in a group of 50+ cars with crazy different speeds.
It should be run Like other NASA Regions. Nasa Socal never sells more that one group (if any) per weekend. That gives another group to NASA Members. That way you can split the classes by speed and not have 50+ cars on track at once with Prototypes racing with Legend cars.
BTW- The white Porsche driver was a PRC driver not a NASA driver correct?
09-15-2017, 01:54 PM
#83
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AFA "all-comers" groups in NASA, I run with Mid-Atlantic in my sports racer. Although the times would put me in the top three or five of a typical Thunder (big-bore) group, they run me in Lightning (small and medium bore) because the HC, GTS1-2, SM cars can see me a little easier, even though I am typically running ten to fifteen seconds quicker than the next quickest car in the group. It's my responsibility as the faster car to pick my way through in a safe, responsible and courteous manner, not their responsibility to avoid me...
In historics, we run mixed groups all the time. With no or little trouble...
09-15-2017, 01:55 PM
#84
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Do not apologize - you have nothing to be sorry for.
It really pisses me off when all certain people can offer is doom and discouragement.
I LOVE getting someone new involved in either DE or racing. I wrote a few articles for the CVR newsletter about my being a newbie to racing a few years back and I had a handful of people tell me those articles encouraged them to race. I take such pride in that fact.
Keep asking your questions and keep thinking about advancing.
It really pisses me off when all certain people can offer is doom and discouragement.
I LOVE getting someone new involved in either DE or racing. I wrote a few articles for the CVR newsletter about my being a newbie to racing a few years back and I had a handful of people tell me those articles encouraged them to race. I take such pride in that fact.
Keep asking your questions and keep thinking about advancing.
09-15-2017, 02:03 PM
#85
I could see him moving back and forth in my mirror between 9 and 11 on the pace lap, and decided then to stay clear of him at flag drop. He passed me right around 12, a tick or two before the double yellows were dropped and the green flag was waved.
I could tell the #69 driver was someone to keep an eye on. I have been in plenty of situations where guys are in back due to problems with quali and/or penalties and are aggressive to get up front at race start.
My most vivid memory is back at Laguna around 2003 or so where a guy bought what I think was a GTA car at the track on one day, and raced it the next day. , then hit his brakes when the front of the car was light, and turned violently right into k wall.
I could tell the #69 driver was someone to keep an eye on. I have been in plenty of situations where guys are in back due to problems with quali and/or penalties and are aggressive to get up front at race start.
My most vivid memory is back at Laguna around 2003 or so where a guy bought what I think was a GTA car at the track on one day, and raced it the next day. , then hit his brakes when the front of the car was light, and turned violently right into k wall.
09-15-2017, 02:18 PM
#86
In boxing school when someone got a little too big for their britches a very polite unassuming guy would show up in our class. He would always hand the bad guy his head on a platter and miraculously the bad guy would either not be at class next week and quit or have a new air of humbleness and respect about him. Surprise surprise. My instructor was a pretty smart guy.
09-15-2017, 02:32 PM
#87
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Now you get GT3 HPDE winners (yes they think they win it) getting a weekend race license to become youtube heros. Modern traction control and other nannies are only going to make this worse. IMO that ego never cares about a 13/13.
We got to make their lives painful for stupid stuff. Ban them or teach them. Make them pay money and time for stupidity by sending them back to school. They take a ban or present a certificate for passing race school yet again. Give that guy some pain like the BMW guy is having now. Bend a fender 1 day school, other guy goes to doctor you get 2 day school, other guy car totaled you get 5 day school. We need to have significant consequences for bad behavior.
In boxing school when someone got a little too big for their britches a very polite unassuming guy would show up in our class. He would always hand the bad guy his head on a platter and miraculously the bad guy would either not be at class next week and quit or have a new air of humbleness and respect about him. Surprise surprise. My instructor was a pretty smart guy.
We got to make their lives painful for stupid stuff. Ban them or teach them. Make them pay money and time for stupidity by sending them back to school. They take a ban or present a certificate for passing race school yet again. Give that guy some pain like the BMW guy is having now. Bend a fender 1 day school, other guy goes to doctor you get 2 day school, other guy car totaled you get 5 day school. We need to have significant consequences for bad behavior.
In boxing school when someone got a little too big for their britches a very polite unassuming guy would show up in our class. He would always hand the bad guy his head on a platter and miraculously the bad guy would either not be at class next week and quit or have a new air of humbleness and respect about him. Surprise surprise. My instructor was a pretty smart guy.
Underlined? Great post and the direction this needs to go!
Word.
In Skip Barber Racing School, the most dreaded acronym among the students was "OSB." Other Sports Beckon.
The instructor corps could tell very quickly if this was going to be the case.
Last edited by ProCoach; 09-15-2017 at 02:54 PM.
09-15-2017, 02:42 PM
#88
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Keeping in mind this thread is about the #69 car and the BMW driver and aggressive track behavior, and not about me, you have all given me a lot to think about, and I appreciate any and all of it.
The advice and info you folks talk about here is priceless, to me it is anyway.
I will race.
It's not a matter of "if" at this point but a matter of "when".
I have only been doing DE's and open track days for about 4 to5 years now, and while getting in between 30 to 40 track days/season as of late, I learn something new from every coach and every instructor I have in my right seat every time out on the track.
I have been driving Porsches since 1998, but really started getting into the DE's and track days about 5 years ago, so I have maybe 100-120 total days on track total.
More seat time has clearly helped me become a much better driver, and better situational driver, and I plan on continuing on this learning curve for the rest of my life.
I will race and I know I will love it, but I don't want to incur serious injury (or worse) because of someone else's aggression on the track.
If I get hurt, I want it to be MY fault, or NOBODY'S fault, and I sure as $hit don't want my behavior to get someone else hurt. Not sure I'd be sleeping too well if that happened.
Basically, I don't want to sustain injury because SOMEONE ELSE is not following the rules of the road while racing. The #69 car was clearly not following those rules, and the result of his behavior was a bad one.
That's the only point I was trying to make in this thread and the only thing I was asking about. It was just pretty much "WHY"? Nothing more.
Like I said, I will race. It's a matter of when, not if.
And if I haven't said it enough already, you guys are the best...
The advice and info you folks talk about here is priceless, to me it is anyway.
I will race.
It's not a matter of "if" at this point but a matter of "when".
I have only been doing DE's and open track days for about 4 to5 years now, and while getting in between 30 to 40 track days/season as of late, I learn something new from every coach and every instructor I have in my right seat every time out on the track.
I have been driving Porsches since 1998, but really started getting into the DE's and track days about 5 years ago, so I have maybe 100-120 total days on track total.
More seat time has clearly helped me become a much better driver, and better situational driver, and I plan on continuing on this learning curve for the rest of my life.
I will race and I know I will love it, but I don't want to incur serious injury (or worse) because of someone else's aggression on the track.
If I get hurt, I want it to be MY fault, or NOBODY'S fault, and I sure as $hit don't want my behavior to get someone else hurt. Not sure I'd be sleeping too well if that happened.
Basically, I don't want to sustain injury because SOMEONE ELSE is not following the rules of the road while racing. The #69 car was clearly not following those rules, and the result of his behavior was a bad one.
That's the only point I was trying to make in this thread and the only thing I was asking about. It was just pretty much "WHY"? Nothing more.
Like I said, I will race. It's a matter of when, not if.
And if I haven't said it enough already, you guys are the best...
09-15-2017, 03:03 PM
#89
Why are you so abrasive sometimes, Scott? The guy has raised some good points and is ASKING QUESTIONS, not acting like a know-it-all.
The whole "just racing," "$#it happens" and "there are always going to be bad people, but a majority are good" is just a rationalization for officials, organizations and cultures not articulating expected behavior well enough, enforcing their existing rules in a even, consistent and impartial manner and ultimately FAILING their participants and their organization's mission.
As long as this stuff (generically stated, NOT this particular instance) is allowed to continue or be excused, people will drive with less margin, poorer judgement and more entitlement. There is plenty of data to support the decline in driving standards... Everywhere...
I have sat in MANY PCA Club Racing Rookie Orientations and have heard scrut's tell the group on more than one occasion "PCA Club Racing has fewer accidents than any other group" and "the incident rate has been going down over time" when three days later, we're all in the paddock reviewing the significant number of cars brought in on the flatbed with damage, some multi-car. The data does NOT support these statements. Period. You could substitute NASA, HSR or SVRA for PCA Club Racing in the above sentence and it's the same deal, so this is not a slam on any ONE group.
It's going to have to change to get better. Whether it's participants quicker to report concerning on-track behavior, tighter enforcement of contact rules (and NOT loosening them, as in "you can continue after contact until the end of the race" or "No 13/13 for GT4 CS"), or even officials acting PROACTIVELY to park people BEFORE concerns potentially turn into contact incidents, SOMETHING will have to change for this to get better and TRULY drop the incident rate.
Four or five years ago, I rarely, if ever, saw a car to car incident in track days or DE's. Now, much more common. This is NOT limited to "racing."
This is a problem, whether you guys want to explain it away. Or not.
The whole "just racing," "$#it happens" and "there are always going to be bad people, but a majority are good" is just a rationalization for officials, organizations and cultures not articulating expected behavior well enough, enforcing their existing rules in a even, consistent and impartial manner and ultimately FAILING their participants and their organization's mission.
As long as this stuff (generically stated, NOT this particular instance) is allowed to continue or be excused, people will drive with less margin, poorer judgement and more entitlement. There is plenty of data to support the decline in driving standards... Everywhere...
I have sat in MANY PCA Club Racing Rookie Orientations and have heard scrut's tell the group on more than one occasion "PCA Club Racing has fewer accidents than any other group" and "the incident rate has been going down over time" when three days later, we're all in the paddock reviewing the significant number of cars brought in on the flatbed with damage, some multi-car. The data does NOT support these statements. Period. You could substitute NASA, HSR or SVRA for PCA Club Racing in the above sentence and it's the same deal, so this is not a slam on any ONE group.
It's going to have to change to get better. Whether it's participants quicker to report concerning on-track behavior, tighter enforcement of contact rules (and NOT loosening them, as in "you can continue after contact until the end of the race" or "No 13/13 for GT4 CS"), or even officials acting PROACTIVELY to park people BEFORE concerns potentially turn into contact incidents, SOMETHING will have to change for this to get better and TRULY drop the incident rate.
Four or five years ago, I rarely, if ever, saw a car to car incident in track days or DE's. Now, much more common. This is NOT limited to "racing."
This is a problem, whether you guys want to explain it away. Or not.
No where did I suggest this was "just racing" or "$#it happens". What I did say was that it is difficult to predict the likelihood of someone causing a wreck based on a limited amount of exposure.
We had never seen the #69 car driver before. We had no data to work from. All we could judge him by was what we saw on the track. I didn't hear anything that indicated he was going to cause a wreck. I know this driver was in at least one meeting clearly describing expected behavior and probably in two. Sometimes you don't know what's going to happen until it happens.
Based on his experience, he should have had many opportunities to drive in many multi-class races. We don't get a "rap sheet" on drivers so we can't know what they have done win the past. I guess we could just decline anyone we don't know....or all Cup Car drivers...that's not practical though.
What I don't like is people that were not there not knowing anything about the situation stating what should or should not have been done. I don't like them suggesting the steward or race director did not act as they should when the have no idea what transpired before the wreck took place.
A DE driver that expects racing to be perfectly safe and clean is living in a dream world and should not be commenting on what should have been done in this situation. He literally has no idea what he is talking about.
09-15-2017, 03:10 PM
#90
I wonder what your clubs do when licensed racers you have never seen before enter an event. Do you allow no licensed racers you have zero experience with? Or do you have people that can see the future running registration??