Bruce P

hf1 -- You indicated that your return to PCA racing would be partially based on comments here. Lots of PCA racers have received the dreaded 13 (myself included). The immediate disappointment of being banned for 13 months will subside in time. But the rules are the rules and they are designed to maximize the fun and minimize the damage. I have no doubt that your previous incident(s) factored into the decision as I believe they should. As someone above stated, part of racing (a large part) is to know the drivers. This extends to the stewards and scruits as well. I would encourage you to look at this experience as part of the learning curve for racing in a gentleman's race series. I assume that part of your reasoning for trying to make this pass was the feeling of some "pressure" from the SPB behind you and that you did not want the white 944 to cost you a position. This scenario will be a part of every race you have if you decide to continue. Sometimes you will be the first in line to pass a slower car (this time) and sometimes you will be the second or third car in line. Decisions made for these situations will come easier with the more experience you get. Personally in your situation I would have set up closely on the left rear corner of the 944 about where you passed him, effectively using him as a "pick" for the SPB behind you. This would have allowed you to concentrate on a good exit from the left and would have used the 944 to cause the trailing SPB to either slow or be way offline (both good for you). Racing is both a mental and physical activity and sometimes the mental part will be more draining than the physical part but will be just as rewarding. I also applaud your willingness to post here and take the heat.

mglobe

Boxster was coming up on the 944 like a freight train long before the incident. Boxster commits to turn-in quite a bit sooner than the 944 (watch it again if you don't agree). The 944 had to have seen the Boxster unless his mirrors had fallen off. There's no one he is chasing that could keep him fixated on something in front. 13 to 944 or a run out in my opinion.

sbelles

Sure there is. If you don't hit the apex on the right you won't get through the left without lifting. Even in a SP1. The 944 was on line and had no one ahead or along side at turn-in so he didn't do anything wrong. He could have seen the SPB coming and stayed left but I doubt he did.

Quadcammer

bit aggressive on the spb's part, but as stated, 944 was hardly in hot pursuit of...well...anyone and likely should have left some room. Then again, you closed the gap probably a bit faster than he was expecting. Definitely a tough call. I don't think a 13 was warranted...a stern talking to both parties should have been sufficient, but if I had to give it to anyone, I think i'd lean very slightly on the SPB.

hf1

While trying to avoid turning this into a character assassination/defense thread, I'd like to point out that while this is my rookie PCA racing year, I'm neither a track nor a racing rookie. I've done a lot of PCA DE track days (mostly in Black run group) and 40+ Skip Barber race weekends over the last ten years without any incidents. There are plenty of people who have raced side-by-side with me and have no problem doing it again. As a matter of fact, the core of my argument all along has been exactly the imperative of side-by-side racing, i.e. always leaving racing room instead of closing doors and leaving fellow racers with no option other than contact or going off.

analogmike

PCA racing is totally different than Barber, SCCA, etc. The rules really put the blame on the passing driver, so much so that there are quite a few drivers who will chop you off (The "PCA chop") when you are beside them making a pass, knowing you will get the penalty, and causing you to back off.

Gary R.

Yes, only surpassed by the "PCA Dive Bomb"... I honestly think the 944 is guilty of neither, just being oblivious to his surroundings, which is just as dangerous.

ExMB

Remember than in your DEs you most likely run with the same group of people constantly. That breeds familiarity which in turn developed knowledge and trust. Even under enhanced PCA passing rules a point by is required in DEs.
You are now in a club racing world without point bys and encountered an unfamiliar (?) driver. Every argument you are bringing is against the other driver and for you. Your DE won expectations with familiar drivers are misplaced in this comparison IMHO. This also shown in the fact that you had a 13 going into this event and didn't adjust accordingly.

jwasbury

The 2nd video clip begins exiting the switchback. You're full throttle after leaving "switchback" all the way up and over the hill and initiating the turn in to left-hand "kryptos" blind before cresting the hill. Doesn't look all that fast in the video, but if you have driven there you'll know it is a pretty fast and sphincter puckering section of the track. If 944 was a novice, I expect he was fixated on not blowing "kryptos."

No question that the 944 should have been more aware, but the video proves that one should not assume the car they are trying to pass is expecting it.

spg993tt

Totally sucks all around. sucks to see 13s get given. the white driver was absurd, horrific, didnt see anything, puttering up that hil, puttering over the top, opening the door like he wanted orange to pass, then closed the door. but he cant just get out of the way, he's still probably near flat going up that rise. the kink can be a car killer and its blind and downhill. he was probably cycling his eyes from looking in the rear mirror, looking in the side, trying to see over the hill, realizing he was about to be way out of whack, and moved right.

i think if pca is going to dish out 13s for stuff like that, then the trailing car was responsible. kind of reminds folks to take that deep breath and just wait till after the kink. its pca racing. that is also. even if it were trans am, imsa or otherwise, unless you have a career and earnings at stake, i see now reason to try to pass on a flat-out, high speed blind slightly downhill kink, known for killing cars.

sucks to hear that was the 2nd x 13. stuff happens, and sometimes it happens in pairs. lots of fun run groups like david murray, chin, track renting groups offer affordable track time and can be more fun at a lower price than pca racing. obviously that was not a fun day for the orange spb.

good luck.

JustinL

I agree with Bruce and have been in similar situations with multiclass racing. When you're in a battle in class and come up on a slower class car, there's more pressure to get 'er done quickly. There are far more complicated situations you'll come across where you have to decide if you want to add pressure to this situation, or back out and be racing at the checkered flag.

As for this incident, I would have been much more cautious with lapping that car and backed off. IMHO, there was time to back out of that move with the brakes before getting along side, and then there was more dirt to be taken. Plastic trophies are less important to me than the time I'll have to spend in the garage fixing stuff. Once the prize money outweighs the cost of replacing the car... GAME ON!

hf1

I would be very thankful (and I think it would be helpful for the discussion) if anyone familiar with PCA's racing rules addressed my arguments and questions that I included in my appeal. Neither the steward making the initial decision nor the steward making the second (after-appeal) decision addressed any of them. Here they are again:

*******************
INTRODUCTION

It was explained to me that the other car was just 'driving the line' which, to the extent that it was actually doing that (instead of staying left to leave me room for a pass, as it initially appeared to me), apparently makes it immune from any fault for the incident. With this appeal I would like to demonstrate that 'just driving the line' is not (or at least should not be) a valid argument/defense in many situations, including the incident at hand.

In addition, the video shows that the other car went from full left to full right across the whole width of the track, leaving me ZERO racing space. Leaving me even half a car-width would have been enough to avoid contact. There was enough track there for the other car to make plenty of other decisions/choices which would have allowed us to negotiate the section problem-free. I, on the other hand, was left with no options but to try to stay on the track, and actually put two wheels in the dirt trying to avoid the contact. I am now wondering if the other driver had even seen me in his mirrors, and if so then what had been going through his mind as he veered from full left to full right across the whole width of the track as I'm passing him on his right at a large speed differential.

PART 1

If the section of the track can be viewed as a turn, then the point of contact did not happen anywhere near an apex but at a turn-in point for a left-hand turn. There is no apex there to be 'owned' by anyone. I was passing on the right, on the outside, starting a left-hand turn. Without going into whether apexes or parts of the track could/should be 'owned' by anyone, does the slower car 'own' the turn-in point of a turn, i.e. the very edge of the track there, as well?

I will give a few EXAMPLES which in my view would be equivalent to the case at hand.

Left-hander going into the Right-hander at LRP...
Assume that a slower car is well on the right side of the track in the section between the Left-hander and the Right-hander at LRP. A much faster car is passing it on the left at or before the turn-in point for the Right-hander. Can the slower car still just 'drive the line', go all the way to the left edge for the turn-in, and block/hit the passing car? Would that be the passing car's fault, since the slower car was just 'driving the line'?

The last (right-hand) Turn 11 at WGI...
Assume that a slower car is well on the right side of the track ahead of the turn-in point into the last (right-hand) Turn 11 at WGI. A much faster car is passing it on the left side at or before the turn-in for Turn 11. Can the slower car just 'drive the line', go all the way to the left edge for the turn-in, and block/hit the passing car? Would that be the passing car's fault, since the slower car was just 'driving the line'?

I submit that IF the section of my incident is viewed as an entry (turn-in) to a turn, then the incident at hand closely resembles these examples and that the passing car would NOT be at fault in any of them. I could be wrong and I am willing to learn.

PART 2

Another and perhaps more correct way to view this track section would be as a pseudo-straight with a meandering sequence of soft (near full throttle) turns similar to the Esses at WGI or No Name Straight at LRP. Plenty of problem-free passes in all racing series, including PCA, have occurred on those sections especially of a faster car approaching at a large speed differential and passing a slower/lapped car. If in these sections the slower car blocked the faster car by 'driving the line' and by veering across the whole width of the track without leaving any racing space, would the faster car be the one at fault for the contact?

When a pass is initiated in any of these sections by a much faster car, does the slower car still have the right to simply 'drive the line' regardless of the position of the passing car OR does/should 'leave racing space' take priority for the sake of the safety of everyone involved?

I submit that there are many situations in which just 'driving the line' is not (or should not be) a valid defense for the slower car, including all of the listed examples and especially the incident at hand. After all, there is a reason why all cars must have rear view mirrors and why all drivers must use them. We wouldn't need them if simply 'driving the line' without any regard of what's coming from behind was enough for proper and correct racing. Again, I could be wrong and I am willing to learn.
*******************

Veloce Raptor

Too much to read. Can you net it out to two or three sentences, please?

spg993tt

if I'm an official, i keep it simple. you tried to pass, you didn't get by cleanly, the guy had no option but to get to the right else he crashes. you pushed the situation, contact happened. 13. and its the guys 2nd 13 in short order. 2 x 13 = 13 month time-out.
ive been in many situations where i could have had contact, and maybe pure luck get me thru there . when i watched that video, i hated the white car. i felt your frustration and desire to get by. hated when the came right and you came left and you two clunked. hated reading about the 13.
just not sure it could be adjudicated any other way.

seriously though, did he go into pitlane and moan to the officials? wild.

hf1

The last (right-hand) Turn 11 at WGI...
Assume that a slower car is well on the right side of the track ahead of the turn-in point into the last (right-hand) Turn 11 at WGI. A much faster car is passing it on the left side at or before the turn-in for Turn 11. Can the slower car just 'drive the line', go all the way to the left edge for the turn-in, and block/hit the passing car? Would that be the passing car's fault, since the slower car was just 'driving the line'?

Another and perhaps more correct way to view this track section would be as a pseudo-straight with a meandering sequence of soft (near full throttle) turns similar to the Esses at WGI or No Name Straight at LRP. Plenty of problem-free passes in all racing series, including PCA, have occurred on those sections especially of a faster car approaching at a large speed differential and passing a slower/lapped car. If in these sections the slower car blocked the faster car by 'driving the line' and by veering across the whole width of the track without leaving any racing space, would the faster car be the one at fault for the contact?