CGT lawsuit filed.
02-15-2006, 12:12 AM
#46
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An F40 now that is a freakin car!!!!!!!!!! Right on !!!!!
I had the chance to drive and thrash one. That is a drivers car. I wish I had bought one when they were available for under 200K for a brief time. There is a guy here in town who has one of the 20 Comp F40s and drives the living snot out of it like it was intended.
I had the chance to drive and thrash one. That is a drivers car. I wish I had bought one when they were available for under 200K for a brief time. There is a guy here in town who has one of the 20 Comp F40s and drives the living snot out of it like it was intended.
02-15-2006, 12:37 AM
#47
"There is a guy here in town who has one of the 20 Comp F40s and drives the living snot out of it like it was intended."
Always glad to hear these stories. The owner of FoW, our dealer here in the DC area, bought a "regular" F40 new and has thrashed it on track ever since - not babied it, really pushed it. My car was a very low mileage collector queen that I'm rapidly devaluing by piling up the miles ... I'd give it up in a heartbeat for an F40LM, though.
Regards, Will
Always glad to hear these stories. The owner of FoW, our dealer here in the DC area, bought a "regular" F40 new and has thrashed it on track ever since - not babied it, really pushed it. My car was a very low mileage collector queen that I'm rapidly devaluing by piling up the miles ... I'd give it up in a heartbeat for an F40LM, though.
Regards, Will
02-15-2006, 05:06 AM
#49
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Are we certain the allegation of Ben's CGT "not handling correctly" is incorrect? I wasn't there, and clearly don't know, but it sounds like somebody heard something. As most know, this has been a disquieting concern of mine on other threads, but I have been properly chastised by owners who say their car does exactly what it is told to do.
I think negligence can occur on the track. I believe Gordon Johncock's son died at Skip Barber in Wisconsin when the van being driven by an instructor samcked into a maintenance vehicle at Canada corner. I had previously written a letter to Skip noting that the instructor at the time drove the fully loaded van at a level I considered unsafe for instructional purposes. It was a great van ride, but left no margin for part failure or any other contingency considering there were passengers on board. Back then, I had earned a free session by being track doctor at a Skip event, so I felt my insight might be valued. It wasn't.
Again at Road America, a gentleman showed up with a turbocharged Indy Car- a 1400 pound, 800 hp monster with boost like an Atlas Rocket. He was overwhelmed by the power and took out a bunch of unsuspecting vintage participants. I think, as an organizer, you can tell which cars require some credentials. All cars are dangerous, but some are really dangerous. At some performance level, one-on-one coaching, observation, and probation may be necessary before exposing co-participants or passengers to risk. I think that's what rookie testing is all about at Indy. Just because you can buy it doesn't mean you can drive it.
I had a recent conversation about this with a volunteer instructor at a local event who was at wit's end with a new Viper owner. The guy was all over the track, hard on the throtle, hard on the brakes, but no feel in the corners. That driver needed a 2500 rpm redline until he figured it out. In the meantime, everybody was at risk. Who's job was it to recapture some modicum of safety? Cars like a Viper get into the danger zone alot more readily than a TR4 on Michelin X tires. Yes, I know you can die in either, but you see my point.
The unfortunate circumstance at the top of this thread will probably hold some surprises. I hope we learn about it. We probably need Les and Nick to keep us informed. Thanks, gentlemen. AS
I think negligence can occur on the track. I believe Gordon Johncock's son died at Skip Barber in Wisconsin when the van being driven by an instructor samcked into a maintenance vehicle at Canada corner. I had previously written a letter to Skip noting that the instructor at the time drove the fully loaded van at a level I considered unsafe for instructional purposes. It was a great van ride, but left no margin for part failure or any other contingency considering there were passengers on board. Back then, I had earned a free session by being track doctor at a Skip event, so I felt my insight might be valued. It wasn't.
Again at Road America, a gentleman showed up with a turbocharged Indy Car- a 1400 pound, 800 hp monster with boost like an Atlas Rocket. He was overwhelmed by the power and took out a bunch of unsuspecting vintage participants. I think, as an organizer, you can tell which cars require some credentials. All cars are dangerous, but some are really dangerous. At some performance level, one-on-one coaching, observation, and probation may be necessary before exposing co-participants or passengers to risk. I think that's what rookie testing is all about at Indy. Just because you can buy it doesn't mean you can drive it.
I had a recent conversation about this with a volunteer instructor at a local event who was at wit's end with a new Viper owner. The guy was all over the track, hard on the throtle, hard on the brakes, but no feel in the corners. That driver needed a 2500 rpm redline until he figured it out. In the meantime, everybody was at risk. Who's job was it to recapture some modicum of safety? Cars like a Viper get into the danger zone alot more readily than a TR4 on Michelin X tires. Yes, I know you can die in either, but you see my point.
The unfortunate circumstance at the top of this thread will probably hold some surprises. I hope we learn about it. We probably need Les and Nick to keep us informed. Thanks, gentlemen. AS
02-15-2006, 08:27 AM
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Nick, having read some of your comments on this forum you've had me infuriated on plenty of occasions (How ever, I've never responded to them), but having read what you've done to Keaton's family, i feel like a fool now. Now, i am glad to have read the comments from such a stand up kind of a guy, my hats off to you. 
I am sickened by this lawsuit as well, particularly because of Ben's involvement.....But, I understand the allegations made against him, and why one may do that in a lawsuit (How ever I don't agree with them, but that's besides the point). But my defence for Ben is, How about Cory's responsibility?
Who's responsibility is it to acertain such an endeavor to be unduly risky. Can anyone be expected to jump into a car with anyone else and expect others to do THEIR due deligence for them, and that they don't have any responsibilities what so ever? I just want to make this one point to keep my response short.
P.S: I am only talking about Ben here, not Porsche, the track or the ferrari club. Is Ben responsible for telling Cory that his car had some handling quirks ( what ever that means), that he had spun the car on previous occasions, and that he is a reckless driver (again whether this can be substanciated, and even if it is, whether it's Ben's responsibility to inform every passenger) etc. or Corey question on these matters prior to getting into the car?
I am sickened by this lawsuit as well, particularly because of Ben's involvement.....But, I understand the allegations made against him, and why one may do that in a lawsuit (How ever I don't agree with them, but that's besides the point). But my defence for Ben is, How about Cory's responsibility?
Who's responsibility is it to acertain such an endeavor to be unduly risky. Can anyone be expected to jump into a car with anyone else and expect others to do THEIR due deligence for them, and that they don't have any responsibilities what so ever? I just want to make this one point to keep my response short.
P.S: I am only talking about Ben here, not Porsche, the track or the ferrari club. Is Ben responsible for telling Cory that his car had some handling quirks ( what ever that means), that he had spun the car on previous occasions, and that he is a reckless driver (again whether this can be substanciated, and even if it is, whether it's Ben's responsibility to inform every passenger) etc. or Corey question on these matters prior to getting into the car?
Last edited by Sanjeevan; 02-15-2006 at 11:50 AM.
02-15-2006, 12:07 PM
#52
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Originally Posted by jeeva
Nick, having read some of your comments on this forum you've had me infuriated on plenty of occasions (How ever, I've never responded to them), but having read what you've done to Keaton's family, i feel like a fool now. Now, i am glad to have read the comments from such a stand up kind of a guy, my hats off to you.
I am sickened by this lawsuit as well, particularly because of Ben's involvement.....But, I understand the allegations made against him, and why one may do that in a lawsuit (How ever I don't agree with them, but that's besides the point). But my defence for Ben is, How about Cory's responsibility?
Who's responsibility is it to acertain such an endeavor to be unduly risky. Can anyone be expected to jump into a car with anyone else and expect others to do THEIR due deligence for them, and that they don't have any responsibilities what so ever? I just want to make this one point to keep my response short.
P.S: I am only talking about Ben here, not Porsche, the track or the ferrari club. Is Ben responsible for telling Cory that his car had some handling quirks ( what ever that means), that he had spun the car on previous occasions, and that he is a reckless driver (again whether this can be substanciated, and even if it is, whether it's Ben's responsibility to inform every passenger) etc. or Corey question on these matters prior to getting into the car?
I am sickened by this lawsuit as well, particularly because of Ben's involvement.....But, I understand the allegations made against him, and why one may do that in a lawsuit (How ever I don't agree with them, but that's besides the point). But my defence for Ben is, How about Cory's responsibility?
Who's responsibility is it to acertain such an endeavor to be unduly risky. Can anyone be expected to jump into a car with anyone else and expect others to do THEIR due deligence for them, and that they don't have any responsibilities what so ever? I just want to make this one point to keep my response short.
P.S: I am only talking about Ben here, not Porsche, the track or the ferrari club. Is Ben responsible for telling Cory that his car had some handling quirks ( what ever that means), that he had spun the car on previous occasions, and that he is a reckless driver (again whether this can be substanciated, and even if it is, whether it's Ben's responsibility to inform every passenger) etc. or Corey question on these matters prior to getting into the car?
02-15-2006, 05:04 PM
#53
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Originally Posted by JBH
Until then, I remain neutral; objecting to those that rely on speculation and opinions to build their case.
So please spare us your B.S. BTW any attorney that does not forcefully protect his client interest should be disbarred. If I represent a client whether it is Ben's family or even you I will use every legal remedy and theory to suucessfully accomplish why my client sought out an attorney in the first place. Anything less is unacceptable.
02-15-2006, 05:17 PM
#54
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Nick - Bravo!
02-15-2006, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Les Quam
The complaint addressed the waiver issue and I can summarize the allegations and theory behind getting around the waiver. Bear in mind the passengers family has filed suit against Ben's estate and others and that Ben's family is a defendant not plaintiff.
The essence of getting around the waiver in the complaint is as follows:
"Keaton had been warned that his Porsche was not handling correctly and willfully invited Corey Rudl to be a passenger without informing him of the danger"
"Keaton also concealed the fact that that he had recently been involved in an incident with the Porsche in which he lost control over it"
"Scott Flavell an organizer of the event was also aware of keaton's reckless driving and recent handling problems of his Porsche but concealed the danger from Corey Rudl"
"SD Ferrai owners club allowed the track to be set up in violation of racetrack standards and concealed the fact from defendants customers"
The theory is that by these alleged overt concealments and alleged willful failure to disclose Corey couldn't make a knowing waiver and therefore the waiver is not valid. They also alleged gross acts of misconduct and negligence which would if proven true invalidate the waiver.
The essence of getting around the waiver in the complaint is as follows:
"Keaton had been warned that his Porsche was not handling correctly and willfully invited Corey Rudl to be a passenger without informing him of the danger"
"Keaton also concealed the fact that that he had recently been involved in an incident with the Porsche in which he lost control over it"
"Scott Flavell an organizer of the event was also aware of keaton's reckless driving and recent handling problems of his Porsche but concealed the danger from Corey Rudl"
"SD Ferrai owners club allowed the track to be set up in violation of racetrack standards and concealed the fact from defendants customers"
The theory is that by these alleged overt concealments and alleged willful failure to disclose Corey couldn't make a knowing waiver and therefore the waiver is not valid. They also alleged gross acts of misconduct and negligence which would if proven true invalidate the waiver.
Thank you for keeping us informed, Les.
Thank you for your good deeds, Nick.
02-15-2006, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by themarsman
How can anyone know that Ben didn't tell Cory about spinning the car previously. Personally if someone told me they had spun a car before if I felt they were a good driver that wouldn't stop me from riding with them. Anyone who hasn't spun a car at least once isn't pushing the car very hard at all. I guarantee you won't find one professional driver who hasn't spun a car more times then he has fingers.
02-15-2006, 05:45 PM
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I think it's important to clarify that Nick is doing all the work on Behalf of Ben's family not I.
In fact Nick asked me not to go public with his role and keep it confidential but I couldn't restrain myself in light of some of the bashing he has received and I thought people should know about some of his noble efforts on behalf of Ben's family even though Nick seems to enjoy the role of being the villian sometimes. Sorry Nick.
Jeff,
That looks like the nose of a 275GTB to me? Where is that car? In your garage? Have you been holding out on us?
In fact Nick asked me not to go public with his role and keep it confidential but I couldn't restrain myself in light of some of the bashing he has received and I thought people should know about some of his noble efforts on behalf of Ben's family even though Nick seems to enjoy the role of being the villian sometimes. Sorry Nick.
Jeff,
That looks like the nose of a 275GTB to me? Where is that car? In your garage? Have you been holding out on us?
02-15-2006, 06:10 PM
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Jeff,
What other cars does he have what was the competition like in order for the 275 GTB to win favorite status??? Has he shared with you how long he has owned it and why he likes it so much?
What other cars does he have what was the competition like in order for the 275 GTB to win favorite status??? Has he shared with you how long he has owned it and why he likes it so much?
02-15-2006, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Les Quam
I thought people should know about some of his noble efforts on behalf of Ben's family even though Nick seems to enjoy the role of being the villian sometimes. Sorry Nick.
In order, here are two threads I just found that have made my day today:
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=42572
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=31406
Good day, all.
02-15-2006, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by icon
name any car and he probably has one 
if you are serious about looking for one i'll be happy to check with him about availability on your behalf. i don't think he would sell his but he might know of another.
if you are serious about looking for one i'll be happy to check with him about availability on your behalf. i don't think he would sell his but he might know of another.