Sauron

Hi Guys - firstly a bit of background:
I myself own an 04 GT3 Clubsport and the lack of driver aids and transparency of the controls and chassis are TO ME a huge plus point. I've been working with a sports car tuning company here in the UK and have driven countless high performance cars. I'm SICK of the relentless techno overload coming out of Ferrari and after a recent blast in the Ferrari 430 just had my worst fears confirmed that Ferrari are simply synthesising the driving experience and impressing with technology as opposed to the raw quality of transparent, basic but equally capable chassis - think 360 CS Vs GT3 RS....

I think THE most appealing thing about the CGT is the fact that it started life as a genuine Le Mans car. What I would like owners to elaborate on is "what driving attributes of the car have created the myth that the car is soo dangerous for mere-mortal drivers?"
This "myth" hasn't been helped by the death of a friend of mine out in Dubai in his Carrera GT which he lost control of at a ridiculous speed following a Koenigsegg in informal drag race... this and numerous (and often heart rending tragic) "wipe out" stories just add to the reputation.
I put zero faith in what 99% of journalists and critics have to say about supercars... the opinions of someone that typically test diesel minivans and then jump for day into an Enzo/CGT is NOT IMO comparable to an owner who also has a series of other supercars that he drives on a regular/daily basis.

So - to cut a long story short - owners - WHAT DRIVING CHARACTERISTICS of this car have lent the CGT to being thought of a such an aggressive car that's not for novices (unlike say an Enzo??)..

W8MM

I don't consider the CGT to be "aggressive" toward the driver at all. (Tell me if you mean something else.)

It does exactly what one tells it to do.

Perhaps novices don't know what to tell it?

Here's some more of what I think on this topic (click me).

DMin

My impressions from driving my Carrera GT is that it does not tolerate fools lightly. Brutal acceleration accompanied by a complacent or inattentive driver leads to disastrous outcomes.

As far as the fatal accidents are concerned, they occured at very high speed and I am not sure that many casual or even moderately experienced drivers ought to be driving at that speed. Certainly, if one chooses to drive at that speed, one must face the consequences, even if a crash is not the fault of the driver. Reaction times at speed are so low that crash avoidance may be impossible for all but a very few drivers. Even F1 drivers crash routinely, even in testing (as opposed to race laps).

I personally feel the Carrera GT is a competent boulevard cruiser. The response is immediate and the limits are incredibly high. I'll be doing a track day in early September, but I doubt I'll even get to 6/10's, let alone 9 or 10/10's.

Ray G

I think the reason it gets the "monster" rep is because:

A) A lot of journalists are bad drivers. I've heard that most of the Porsche press fleet cars have sustained damage.

B) The controls on the CGT are direct and sensitive. It is easy to over-correct if you get into any trouble. You need to learn a light steering technique.

C) People don't respect the power at first, and try to accelerate as hard as possible because of the novelty of it.

I've done 4 track days in mine so far, and I think it's the best, and safest car I've ever driven on the track. Much easier to drive (fast) than a GT3.

Les Quam

DMIN, and Mike,

I couldn't have put it any better.

As Jay Leno says about the CGT "I already have one mother" and don't want anyone else helping me drive the car.
Referring to the driver aids found on the ENZO.

BTW when Bryan Herta drove both the Enzo and CGT for a magazine test he found the CGT much more stable at 200 MPH.

Sauron

W8MM - tremendous post in the other thread - thank you so much.

From the comments posted here, it appears that the CGT really is a race car for the road and more than anything else Porsche have resisted the tendency to "dumb-down" the car. It's also clear that Porsche EXPECT a certain level of driver skill from owners of their most focussed products... GT3/GT2 and then a few levels up..... the CGT.

What I find interesting is the trade off between outright chassis capability and how critical on-limit handling is. The Ferrari Enzo (a car I've driven) has huge limits too but Ferrari "appear" to have taken the edge off the car with electronics and the on-limit behaviour. It looks like this has not happened with the CGT. In line with Porsche's philosophy for the their most sporting products, it looks from your comments, that the limits have been raised to some crazy level, and the penalty is that the car requires serious skill to extract the most from.

Putting the last paragraph a bit more clearly:
A friend of mine has a Ferrari F50 and a CGT (and has driven the Enzo extensively). He explained that whilst the CGT will destroy the F50 in every way, it's ultimate limits are even HIGHER than the Ferrari Enzo he has driven (he actually said that the car can pull what appears to be discernibly greater outright lateral G) but those limits come at the expense of it's on-limit behaviour.

Les Quam - I was offered an 02 GT2 with less miles for less money than my 04 GT3 - I didn't go for it because I was put off by the "widomaker" tag the GT2 has here in the UK...
How would you compare the two cars in terms of outright performance and interestingly, how they behave when you get it wrong??

W8MM

I'd like to discuss your comment in two separate pieces.

1) I don't consider the limits of the car to be wildly in excess of what one might extrapolate from driving most sports cars. The CGT corners 10 to 20% better (1.20-1.30 g) than modern sports cars intended for the street (0.95-1.10 g). But, it doesn't corner as well as purpose-built race cars equipped with purpose-built racing tires (1.6-2.0 g). It accelerates much better than modern sports cars intended for the street, but not as well as purpose-built race cars.

All this means is that it has higher corner exit speeds and can add speed after the corner's exit even more quickly than modern sports cars. This is not really a problem and is easy, and quite thrilling, to enjoy in a single-event (1 corner at a time) maneuver. Anybody can do it. The increased limits, per se, are not close to being crazy, or physically too demanding.

2) The troubles start at the SECOND corner, after hammering on the throttle while exiting the first one. A higher corner exit speed as well as more than normal acceleration after the exit is a double whammy! One is going WAY faster than one is used to going, and the time available to plan for the next corner simply vanishes before one realizes what's happening. THAT is what is so intimidating to neophytes. It's really all mental; it's the speed at which one is used to processing the changing driving environment. It's not even related to reaction time. It only requires being ready for what comes next -- really quickly .

One might be tempted to assume that the CGT requires more skill than is necessary to pilot the average high-performance sports car. I think that the skills required to really get the most out of the CGT are the same as any sports car, but one doesn't ordinarily use them at such a pace. It's totally mental, like playing blitzkrieg-chess instead of recreationally paced chess.

It's really quite easy: Don't turn in too early, or brake too late

Les Quam

When comparing the handling of a CGT to a GT2. I start with the design of the two cars. The CGT is newer design with a mid engine layout with possibly the lowest center of gravity of any street car ever built? In other words it is perfectly balanced and I can find no flaws in it's handling characteristics.

The GT2 has the engine located behind the rear axle and the Porsche engineers have done miracles with the car to overcome this antiquated design but it is still limited by it's design. The turbo lag has for the most part been eliminated but the power still builds all at once and the car is a challenge to drive but still very stable when the throttle is modulated corectly. Make no mistake the GT2 is a fine handling car and clearly the art of driving this car well is a true pleasure.

The CGT is simply perfect and creates a sense of invincibility in that you just feel like the car can do anything you want it to. And it probably can since most of us run out of talent quicker than the car runs out of grip.

After driving both cars back to back the CGT is so powerful that it makes driving the GT2 feel like you are in slow motion. Everything happens so fast in a CGT compared to a GT 2 when pressed near the limit(of the driver) on the same roads.

The CGT is flawless in every way the GT2 flawed but in a way a driving enthusiast comes to love. Hope that makes sense? I am not much of an automotive writer.

Nick

I believe the responses by CGT owners have answered the question. I agree with everthing they write. Here is a summary of their conclusions;

1. It is very easy to go incredibly fast in the car,

2. So much so that most drivers are unaware or become inattentive,

3. As a result of its racing design, driver input must surgical in touch,

4. Correcting speed or direction must be done smoothly, timely and with exactness,

5. Failure to do so will lead to serious consequences including unsettling the car and lose of control because ALL THE PRIMARY SAFETY RESPONSIBILITY IS WITH THE DRIVER.

In a word, it is monster for all but brave talented drivers who wish to use the car for which it was intended. This car should not be sold to the public without prequalification.

W8MM

I think that's a little over the top, Nick.

Shouldn't the responsibility for safety rest with the driver of any vehicle?

Les Quam

Nick,

I believe the CGT is so perfectly balanced and smooth that it gives inexperienced drivers a sense of overconfidence. Not as you describe in your #2 a lack of awareness and inattentiveness. The car is so good that it is possible that it makes inexperienced drivers believe they have more talent than they actually have.

Most of your points could be applied to all high HP cars. Quite frankly I believe several cars sold today should require at a minimum a certificate from one of the major racing schools three day programs before they should be allowed to drive off the showroom floor with the car.

Les Quam

Mike,
I think what Nick is trying to say is that in his new 430 it is much safer to go up and down the gears without an incident using the F-1 paddle trans. It seems to require less of the driver than the trans found on the CGT?

Les Quam

If we were to peer even farther into the deep dark disturbed recesses of Nick's mind we might also possibly find that the topic he is attempting to bring forth is that perhaps Ferrari has designed a more practical and realistic street supercar?

Perhaps by eliminating the common driver errors of poor downshifting and missed upshifts ferarri has designed a car that more potential supercar buyers can safely drive on the street and at open track days without an incident or moment.

A comparison of the F-360 and F-430 with the GT 2 shows that Ferrari built a very neutral handling mid engined car with a computer controlled transmission that is a more realistic car for the average supercar buyer to drive and enjoy safely than the GT2 that provides nothing in the form of driver aids from a computer. Quite possibly if the CGT was delivered with "only" 500 HP it's monster reputation would not be up for debate?

But then who would want one????

Nick

Les, Mike even with incorporated safety stability systems, the CGT would be a star among super cars. Why deprive the driving public of safety features that will save lives? Is it a macho thing? Is it an Ego thing? What make people want to risk life and family to say they are good drivers?

Les you hit the nail on the head. I believe a super car should be enjoyable and safe. I like to know that if I have made a mistake my partner car will help extricate me. If believing this makes me a lousy /inexperienced wuss driver so be it. My belief is a sport car in this day and age with technology being what it is MUST have all the safety devices as part of the car. It is not over the top to feel that safety is a partnership between the product and the owner.

FWIW, I have no doubt in my mind that both of you would qualify to own this car because of your vast track and driving experience. Probably other owners who post on this site also have the requisite experience. But there are many that do not and in their hands it is a very dangerous car not only to themselves but to the driving public as well.

tdf360

Well, there are still some of us who remain dinosaurs and buy both with conventional 6-spd.

Gary