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CJ you nailed it, correct thoughts on all the brands.
I hate to lose Porsche's sole, also don't forget 1st Porsche miss-step in late 70's, the 928 will replace the 911.
At 1.5m+ I'm looking for a 959.
See you in Tenerife...
This Porsche looks to the future, as did the 959 and 918 in their times. It takes vision and courage to make this car, especially when no one else dares. Ferrari and McLaren are still trying to do 10pct better than the 918 with their next hyper-cars.
This.
But the future isn't the immediate future, it's the future future. Like the 959 showcase and influence Porsche road cars for the following 10 or so years, and the 918 doing so even to this day. The Mission X, when it is released, will have technology and styling cues for the Porsche cars 10 years after. This is why Porsche showcased the 959 and the 918 at the launch of the Mission X concept and at the 75th Anniversary.
Porsche is betting a lot on the Mission X, from the battery technology to public infrastructure support. Some speculate that the car will come around 2027, optimistic. It means the battery they needed will need to come on market by end of 2024 and then they can prototype the car and do 2 years of testing and start production. Realistically, it will be closer to 2030 than 2027.
The public structure is the biggest hurdle. Can there be enough high power chargers to support whatever charging speed Porsche spec-ed for the Mission X by 2030? I will bet my 918 and another 918 that there won't be. It will be at least 20 years before it's remotely close to being enough.
What is the Porsche brand stands for? A performance sports car that's practical and can be used every day. I take my 918 on loooong road trips. I can do easy 6-700km a tank in hybrid mode and perhaps 1000km a day, and that's less than 10 hours of driving time. Fuel stops are easy. I can just as easy do such trips in the 959, or even the CGT. Can I do that with the Mission X? Now right now, not by 2027, and certainly not by 2030. The way the concept car is presented, it will have even less cargo space than a CGT. Maybe a front truck big enough for a carry-on luggage and that's about it.
Porsche is aiming for 2x the charging performance of the Taycan, so 20%-80% in a little over 10 mins. That's still longer than fuelling up the 918, and I will bet it will not do 600km using only 60% of the charge.
It's very likely I will skip the Mission X, it's useless to me, I am not going to sit down with a laptop pulling up ABRP and carefully planning charging stop. That's stupid. I am however planning to hit all lower 50 states and all Canadian provinces in the 918. Infinitely easier and doable.
Will Porsche do a 918 style VIP program with the Mission X? Highly likely they will not. It literally screwed their dealers over inside out and the dealers aren't happy at all with the VIP program, and the US Porsche dealers are quite powerful as a combined entity which PCNA can't really deal with effectively.
I fear the Mission X might be a bridge too far this time around. Even if it comes to market, no one will really use it, it will just be a trophy sitting inside garages and gets driven once in a blue moon maybe to car and coffee or to get serviced.
But what's inside the Mission X will be the skeleton of all future Porsches, which, will be all electric. And also usability. Porsche knew they made a major mistake by doing all touchscreens with the Taycan, it's a completely failure. They still putting a touchscreen inside the Mission X, but surrounded the screen with hard buttons, that one can use without staring at them. I told Dr Blume at the launch event that that's the BEST feature of the Mission X, the hard buttons. He definitely got the message about stupid touchscreens.
I think there’s an *** for every chair. There are 959 owners that would never own a water pumper; CGT owners that would never own an auto hybrid and 918 owners that would never own an EV. I guess then mission X owners that wouldn’t own an autonomous hyper car
But the future isn't the immediate future, it's the future future. Like the 959 showcase and influence Porsche road cars for the following 10 or so years, and the 918 doing so even to this day. The Mission X, when it is released, will have technology and styling cues for the Porsche cars 10 years after. This is why Porsche showcased the 959 and the 918 at the launch of the Mission X concept and at the 75th Anniversary.
Porsche is betting a lot on the Mission X, from the battery technology to public infrastructure support. Some speculate that the car will come around 2027, optimistic. It means the battery they needed will need to come on market by end of 2024 and then they can prototype the car and do 2 years of testing and start production. Realistically, it will be closer to 2030 than 2027.
The public structure is the biggest hurdle. Can there be enough high power chargers to support whatever charging speed Porsche spec-ed for the Mission X by 2030? I will bet my 918 and another 918 that there won't be. It will be at least 20 years before it's remotely close to being enough.
What is the Porsche brand stands for? A performance sports car that's practical and can be used every day. I take my 918 on loooong road trips. I can do easy 6-700km a tank in hybrid mode and perhaps 1000km a day, and that's less than 10 hours of driving time. Fuel stops are easy. I can just as easy do such trips in the 959, or even the CGT. Can I do that with the Mission X? Now right now, not by 2027, and certainly not by 2030. The way the concept car is presented, it will have even less cargo space than a CGT. Maybe a front truck big enough for a carry-on luggage and that's about it.
Porsche is aiming for 2x the charging performance of the Taycan, so 20%-80% in a little over 10 mins. That's still longer than fuelling up the 918, and I will bet it will not do 600km using only 60% of the charge.
It's very likely I will skip the Mission X, it's useless to me, I am not going to sit down with a laptop pulling up ABRP and carefully planning charging stop. That's stupid. I am however planning to hit all lower 50 states and all Canadian provinces in the 918. Infinitely easier and doable.
Will Porsche do a 918 style VIP program with the Mission X? Highly likely they will not. It literally screwed their dealers over inside out and the dealers aren't happy at all with the VIP program, and the US Porsche dealers are quite powerful as a combined entity which PCNA can't really deal with effectively.
I fear the Mission X might be a bridge too far this time around. Even if it comes to market, no one will really use it, it will just be a trophy sitting inside garages and gets driven once in a blue moon maybe to car and coffee or to get serviced.
But what's inside the Mission X will be the skeleton of all future Porsches, which, will be all electric. And also usability. Porsche knew they made a major mistake by doing all touchscreens with the Taycan, it's a completely failure. They still putting a touchscreen inside the Mission X, but surrounded the screen with hard buttons, that one can use without staring at them. I told Dr Blume at the launch event that that's the BEST feature of the Mission X, the hard buttons. He definitely got the message about stupid touchscreens.
What if the charging isn't super fast at 900W? What if it's around 200W - or near the same speed as a Taycan? You can get 200mi of range in under 30 mins.
Will people care if they can't charge at 450W to 900W but they can charge conveniently on the Taycan or Tesla network?
Porsche might have lofty charging goals, but if they weren't able to meet the charging speed experience, would that really kill the car?
As a regular Tesla user, the route finding and charging network works fine today. Worst case Porsche could join the Tesla network and license the software from them.
I was initially skeptical of the Mission X power to weight ratio. However, it's only slightly better than the .42hp / lb of the Battista, which exists today, so I think it's probable
Porsche will be able to produce 1PS / kg power to weight (.45 hp / lb)
I think the car could get produced and make money for Porsche since if Pininfarina can produce a car, Porsche should be able to using the Rimac technology.
Can they develop the software and electronics to make it work better than the Pininfarina does today? You'd hope.
Originally Posted by Whoopsy
This.
But the future isn't the immediate future, it's the future future. Like the 959 showcase and influence Porsche road cars for the following 10 or so years, and the 918 doing so even to this day. The Mission X, when it is released, will have technology and styling cues for the Porsche cars 10 years after. This is why Porsche showcased the 959 and the 918 at the launch of the Mission X concept and at the 75th Anniversary.
Porsche is betting a lot on the Mission X, from the battery technology to public infrastructure support. Some speculate that the car will come around 2027, optimistic. It means the battery they needed will need to come on market by end of 2024 and then they can prototype the car and do 2 years of testing and start production. Realistically, it will be closer to 2030 than 2027.
The public structure is the biggest hurdle. Can there be enough high power chargers to support whatever charging speed Porsche spec-ed for the Mission X by 2030? I will bet my 918 and another 918 that there won't be. It will be at least 20 years before it's remotely close to being enough.
What is the Porsche brand stands for? A performance sports car that's practical and can be used every day. I take my 918 on loooong road trips. I can do easy 6-700km a tank in hybrid mode and perhaps 1000km a day, and that's less than 10 hours of driving time. Fuel stops are easy. I can just as easy do such trips in the 959, or even the CGT. Can I do that with the Mission X? Now right now, not by 2027, and certainly not by 2030. The way the concept car is presented, it will have even less cargo space than a CGT. Maybe a front truck big enough for a carry-on luggage and that's about it.
Porsche is aiming for 2x the charging performance of the Taycan, so 20%-80% in a little over 10 mins. That's still longer than fuelling up the 918, and I will bet it will not do 600km using only 60% of the charge.
It's very likely I will skip the Mission X, it's useless to me, I am not going to sit down with a laptop pulling up ABRP and carefully planning charging stop. That's stupid. I am however planning to hit all lower 50 states and all Canadian provinces in the 918. Infinitely easier and doable.
Will Porsche do a 918 style VIP program with the Mission X? Highly likely they will not. It literally screwed their dealers over inside out and the dealers aren't happy at all with the VIP program, and the US Porsche dealers are quite powerful as a combined entity which PCNA can't really deal with effectively.
I fear the Mission X might be a bridge too far this time around. Even if it comes to market, no one will really use it, it will just be a trophy sitting inside garages and gets driven once in a blue moon maybe to car and coffee or to get serviced.
But what's inside the Mission X will be the skeleton of all future Porsches, which, will be all electric. And also usability. Porsche knew they made a major mistake by doing all touchscreens with the Taycan, it's a completely failure. They still putting a touchscreen inside the Mission X, but surrounded the screen with hard buttons, that one can use without staring at them. I told Dr Blume at the launch event that that's the BEST feature of the Mission X, the hard buttons. He definitely got the message about stupid touchscreens.
It isn't 900W charging. It's 900V architecture. Another 100V up on the 800V Taycan. When it comes to market, it will be 2 generations ahead of Tesla's 400V. 900V system is easy to do even now but most have just settle on 800V for the time being. Higher voltage means less amperage for the same power, less weight, less heat, etc.
Taycans, on a state of the art 350kW chargers, can peak at 270kW or so, likely can do 300kW even, so Porsche is aiming for 600kW of charging. That's literally doubled the amperage the current chargers can provide. Those 350kW chargers aren't everywhere yet, what makes you think in a few years there will be 700kW or 1000kW chargers magically popping up like gas stations?
200 miles in 30 mins............that's theoretical and totally depending on the driver, road grade and weather. Your 200 miles could mean 150 miles for me or 100 for someone else. That's a totally inaccurate metric. The more accurate measure would be how many kW one can cramp into the car in 30 mins. But even 30 mins is a long time comparing to pumping gas. That's why Porsche is aiming to half the charging time to around 10 mins for 20-80%. A 10 mins stop is borderline acceptable, of course it's even better if it's closer to 5 mins but baby steps.
Even using the numerous Tesla charging network, one still need to FIND the chargers, they aren't like gas stations where you know you will find one just about every freeway exit, or have giant signs that you can see miles away. Take my last road trip from Vancouver to Indianapolis for example, did I sit down with a laptop and planned out the route stop by stop? Nope. The trip planning with my buddy consists of we packing the bags, jump in the car and head south to Washington state, then east across Idaho, then east to Montana and googling which state is east of Montana. Do we want to cross North Dakota or South Dakota. We drove until we need gas and just look for giant gas station signs. We drove until we feel like sleeping and google what town is up coming and book a room maybe an hour or 2 ahead. That's it. If we were to do that same trip in the Mission X, god, I have to spend hours ahead of time planning and marking where chargers are, then plan some more for alternates if the targeted one isn't working. Careful to make sure we aren't stranded in the middle of nowhere Montana or in a corn field in Iowa something. That takes the fun out of road trips completely. If you do the same trip in a Tesla, and we start at the same time, I will be an hour ahead of you as you will be sitting down checking route while I just start driving. And I will be doing a 5 min stop every 400 miles or so while you will be doing a 30 mins stop every '200 miles'. Likely I will arriving at Indy a day ahead of you after accounting for everything.
For the Mission X, the power output won't be an issue. It's the energy storage. Porsche isn't doing it using existing technology. They are aiming for the future. Dry or semi-dry cells will have much better energy density and current characteristics, but the technology isn't here yet. Porsche is better that technology will be mature soon and they can use that. The weight side of the equation totally depending on inventing new batteries that could pack more charge in less weight, and can take in more current without overheating. That's the big bet Porsche is making.
If Porsche can manage to obtain such battery, that technology will power future Porsche EVs. Can they do it before 2027? Not likely but never say never.
They did perfected the hybrid system and blended braking in the 918 and those techs are in every Porsche hybrids and EVs right now. and the blended braking in Porsche are best in the world, no peers. That's something Teslas haven't gotten right yet still after 10 years of making EVs.
The other issue Porsche will be having is software. Stuff mostly works, but they don't all the time. Their emphasis are still car technology focus, the software side is still an after thought. it shows. Porsche Connect app anyone? They had a Connect app then a Porsche Car Connect then now Porsche Connect. The app doesn't have nearly the same functions as even the Ford app, let alone the Tesla app. And it only works part time. This is one area they really need to spend extra to work on.
I am not worry about the money making side. Porsche will make money on the car, they won't price it with a loss like the 959. And whatever R&D they dumped into the project, those will be amortized over what's coming in the rest of the lineup. Way back when Walliser asked the board for a new steering wheel for the 918 Spyder, initially it was a nein. But after some talks that wheel design is used for all following Porsche cars, the R&D cost got spread over hundreds of thousands of cars instead of just 918 cars. And those carbon buckets? Yeah, same too.
Originally Posted by laranja
What if the charging isn't super fast at 900W? What if it's around 200W - or near the same speed as a Taycan? You can get 200mi of range in under 30 mins.
Will people care if they can't charge at 450W to 900W but they can charge conveniently on the Taycan or Tesla network?
Porsche might have lofty charging goals, but if they weren't able to meet the charging speed experience, would that really kill the car?
As a regular Tesla user, the route finding and charging network works fine today. Worst case Porsche could join the Tesla network and license the software from them.
I was initially skeptical of the Mission X power to weight ratio. However, it's only slightly better than the .42hp / lb of the Battista, which exists today, so I think it's probable
Porsche will be able to produce 1PS / kg power to weight (.45 hp / lb)
I think the car could get produced and make money for Porsche since if Pininfarina can produce a car, Porsche should be able to using the Rimac technology.
Can they develop the software and electronics to make it work better than the Pininfarina does today? You'd hope.
You and me both bud! After seeing Mission X pictures and digesting it for several days, I have to admit I have zero desire to own one. This is a rare occurrence for me, as I'm like you, a hardcore Porsche enthusiasts.
But this thing is a mess. I see very little Porsche design language on the outside. It's a mixture of Mclaren, Cadillac, Lotus and then some Porsche
Originally Posted by Whoopsy
It's very likely I will skip the Mission X, it's useless to me, I am not going to sit down with a laptop pulling up ABRP and carefully planning charging stop. That's stupid. I am however planning to hit all lower 50 states and all Canadian provinces in the 918. Infinitely easier and doable.
Well I agree with these big issues. And I certainly agree that long trips over 200mi are not ideal nor competitive with ICE. And I admit, my understanding of the difference Volts vs Watts is not great. However, based on the massive investments in charging and standardization, I think for most owners and most trips, the charging experience will be viable. And by 2027 probably 35%+ of the cars sold in the US will be electric. Charging will be better and people will be used to it.
I also agree with Unotaz on the design language, but that goes to Whoopsy's point about Porsche trying to design for the future. The headlights do scream Cadillac and the rest of the car is any variant of LMDh multimatic chassis with some tiny bit of 919 body work thrown in. In the end if they do make it, I think it will still be Porsche putting out something like an LMP car, which has appeal. I'd be more worried that if this is indeed their design language template for the next 10 years, what will the rest of the line up inherit?
I also think battery technology will be there in time, since it's already very close in the Battista and Porsche will be leaning on Rimac to supply it - which already supplies the Battista. The software issue, I completely agree - witness every video of a MB One shutting down on track or the problems that the Pininfarina's have had. In the end, like I said before, if Pininfarina can ship a car that's already close in performance to the Mission X, and that car looks fabulous, the gauntlet is thrown. If Porsche doesn't do it, some other major manufacturer will.
It is an ominous sign that two existing 918 owners are very skeptical and don't really want one.
You and me both bud! After seeing Mission X pictures and digesting it for several days, I have to admit I have zero desire to own one. This is a rare occurrence for me, as I'm like you, a hardcore Porsche enthusiasts.
But this thing is a mess. I see very little Porsche design language on the outside. It's a mixture of Mclaren, Cadillac, Lotus and then some Porsche
It was epic how we drove back from SF to LA in the 918.
Imagine we doing that in the Missions X, we will need to find charging twice in the middle of nowhere......
Well I agree with these big issues. And I certainly agree that long trips over 200mi are not ideal nor competitive with ICE. And I admit, my understanding of the difference Volts vs Watts is not great. However, based on the massive investments in charging and standardization, I think for most owners and most trips, the charging experience will be viable. And by 2027 probably 35%+ of the cars sold in the US will be electric. Charging will be better and people will be used to it.
I also agree with Unotaz on the design language, but that goes to Whoopsy's point about Porsche trying to design for the future. The headlights do scream Cadillac and the rest of the car is any variant of LMDh multimatic chassis with some tiny bit of 919 body work thrown in. In the end if they do make it, I think it will still be Porsche putting out something like an LMP car, which has appeal. I'd be more worried that if this is indeed their design language template for the next 10 years, what will the rest of the line up inherit?
I also think battery technology will be there in time, since it's already very close in the Battista and Porsche will be leaning on Rimac to supply it - which already supplies the Battista. The software issue, I completely agree - witness every video of a MB One shutting down on track or the problems that the Pininfarina's have had. In the end, like I said before, if Pininfarina can ship a car that's already close in performance to the Mission X, and that car looks fabulous, the gauntlet is thrown. If Porsche doesn't do it, some other major manufacturer will.
It is an ominous sign that two existing 918 owners are very skeptical and don't really want one.
You typical 918 owner has 10+ cars. so when they actually take out the 918, they want an enjoyable drive, or else there are other better suited cars if the trip is car and coffee, Lvl 1 home charging is more than enough to cover the few miles. But for this that actually take theirs on road trips, stopping that long for charging simply isn't acceptable. But of course the majority of 918s are parked in garages as trophy cars so there will be enough Mission X sold to these people to be another trophy sitting at home. The car could be a display item that cannot run and it will still be ok to these people.
I just came back from a trip to Zuffenhausen, Porsche has a sneak pre preview of the Mission X to 12 VIPs during their 75th anniversary event. 3 said they are excited about the Mission X and will be buying. I am part of the other 9 that think it's interesting but will need more time to 'digest'. That's not a very good take rate. The last time Porsche did a sneak peak for us was for the 911R and the 991 Speedster, the take rate was 100%.
If you think in 4 years the sales figure will climb to 35% from the current single digit 4%, I got a bridge to sell you. For the year 2022, 13.75mil cars and trucks were sold in the US. 35% of that will be 5 million. Might climb over 3 mil in 4 years but certainly not 5 mil.
I have multiple EVs, I understand how useful they can be in certain situations, they are perfect for some selected scenarios, but they aren't for everyone and for everything.
They're definitely not for me. Forget the lack of charging infrastructure, range anxiety etc. They're governmentally motivated products being forced onto society. I really hope that Porsche succeeds with their synthetic fuel project.
They're definitely not for me. Forget the lack of charging infrastructure, range anxiety etc. They're governmentally motivated products being forced onto society. I really hope that Porsche succeeds with their synthetic fuel project.
Agree with the government forcing these on society is not the way to go. Carrot much better than stick and each car type is better for certain things. To allow only EVs or only ICEs on the road, would both be wrong.
However, BEVs have role in reducing emissions if used correctly. And those reasonable uses are 1- basic daily driver for 90% of your miles and 2- postal and possible other delivery trucks that operate in a fairly defined area and so can be charged at night.
BEVs are not great for 1- longer road trips, 2- pleasure/weekend trips, 3-sustained track use, 4- or for hauling heavy loads over great distances (semi trucks), pulling a boat, etc.
I have a Tesla model 3 performance as my daily driver and it is great for 90% of my miles, minimal upkeep, cheap home charging, very fast in tighter traffic etc.
But I would hate for that to be my only car. All the rest of my cars are ICE, and I love driving my 991.2 GT3 on the weekends, weekend trips, racetrack, etc.
Agree with the government forcing these on society is not the way to go. Carrot much better than stick and each car type is better for certain things. To allow only EVs or only ICEs on the road, would both be wrong.
However, BEVs have role in reducing emissions if used correctly. And those reasonable uses are 1- basic daily driver for 90% of your miles and 2- postal and possible other delivery trucks that operate in a fairly defined area and so can be charged at night.
BEVs are not great for 1- longer road trips, 2- pleasure/weekend trips, 3-sustained track use, 4- or for hauling heavy loads over great distances (semi trucks), pulling a boat, etc.
I have a Tesla model 3 performance as my daily driver and it is great for 90% of my miles, minimal upkeep, cheap home charging, very fast in tighter traffic etc.
But I would hate for that to be my only car. All the rest of my cars are ICE, and I love driving my 991.2 GT3 on the weekends, weekend trips, racetrack, etc.
And you are absolutely correct, the right tool for the right job. There isn't a one car that fits them all.
EV is a great thing for city driving. I always wanted a pickup truck but the gas mileage wasn't great.....until the Lightning appears. I am using it as my daily, and it doesn't even matter if the efficiency isn't great as it's a EV, which means it cost next to nothing to refill, efficiency for EV is meaningless, I ain't gonna use up the range in one day and if needed I can charge it back up overnight. Same reason why the perceived better range of a Tesla over other EVs is also meaningless. My Lightning is getting about the same against my buddy's Model 3 and my old Taycan 4S trumps them both, but that's just paper victory, charging up the car every 5 days instead of 4, big deal.....NOT!
the force feeding of EV's and the abandonment of ALT-Fuels has been very disheartening. Especially here in CA where the real price of kw's regularly reaches into 0.40-0.50 while charging. I'd rather run a biodiesel supercar.
Too many LARPers are making policy decisions...great example is off shore wind. Total scam.
Whoopsy's point is great. I did the same thing in P1- drove it from Dallas to LA with zero regard for route.
06-16-2023, 10:17 AM
