labcars

Les, while I understand your concerns regarding CGT value relative to other current and future p-cars, I think yu can drive yourself nuts tracking this circular argument. At the CGT's price point, you can't ever make a rational argument for its purchase. The same goes for ANY high value car like the Enzo, the McClaren SLR, any Aston Martin, etc., etc. I suspect all of us have taken some kind of value hit on some car we just had to have and in most instances accepted that as the price of our illness. Unless it's a full time job, trying to make cars a positive investment experience is like pushing a noodle uphill.

I completely accept your relative value argument, but that wasn't what made be get the CGT. What made me get it was how it made me feel to see the shape, appreciate the engineering, and my own delusional sense of what the car would do for my psyche. If I lose or make money whenever I might choose to dispose of the car, then so be it. There will always be something, now or later, that will be faster, lighter, better, newer. I accept that as a fundamental truth in the nature of car ownership. I know you're agonizing over the to buy or not to buy question, and I don't mean to add to your angst, but I think yu can really drive yourself nuts pondering this imponderable.

Either way you go, you've got lots of boy toys!!

Enjoy,
Les

W8MM

Hi Les B.,

I agree completely with your position above. Les Q. has heard this type of thing before. I guess he wants to see if people happy with purchasing a CGT are different from each other. Or, maybe he doesn't really believe us?

Cheers,

Les Quam

Les B. and Mike,
Yes I have heard this before and you both are still quite correct. However what is different is that the Ford GT came out with 550 HP instead of 500. We know a little bit more about the new 997 and Dodge is letting it slip to insiders that in September they will debut a 600 HP street car. We also now know with certainity about the Mercedes SL 65 and it's confirmed 600 HP.

Both of you and ben in lj, have had the chance to either drive or ride in or at least see the production CGT. I know when I get the same chance to see,hear and drive or ride in the car I will know immediately whether I will purchase the car. Until then I plan to make you suffer along with me. We will have the first CGT here in lost wages in May.

Nick

I have been away from this board for a couple of days and I note my name mentioned in vain a few times.

Les I thank you for you defense. You are a gentleman.

Carlos I have ignored because Porsche is so ingrained in his psyche he is incapable of rational thought. Responding to him is like screaming into the ear of a deaf mule. Thus, I allow him to spend his days searching archives for irrelevant threads trying to put down bad, evil and conniving Nick. Others like to jump on the bad wagon because there is security in numbers.

Les you are beginning to find out that the Porsche crowd will try to eat their own if one dares to think that a Porsche is nothing less than the embodiment of perfection. Some in this crowd become so obsessed and fanatical they literally close their minds to other cars. Carlos is a prime example and I feel pity for him. He is well intentioned but just does not any know better.

Carlos from Spain

I personally don't think so, because even though they may be similar in acceleration numbers, everything else that contributes to the driving experience and enjoyment is completely different and have nothing in common. Quater mile times is the least important thing that a supercar has to offer and the last thing you should look for in a CGT or Enzo, heck, my GSX-R1000 stock will blow the doors of the CGT in acceleration at a fraction of the price, but that doesn't make the CGT any less. Thats just my personal opinion though.

Carlos from Spain

Whatever Nick, I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I wanted to argue or follow your game, like Carrera GT said you were "tarred and feathered" thats what I thought I had to do, and its done so lets get back to car talk.

Nick

Carlos, do not pat yourself on the back regarding comments of one person . It only reinforces what I wrote earlier.

However, I agree this should end. Back to cars.

Carrera GT

The expression "tar and feather" does not mean guilt or innocence, just punishment.

Les Quam

Carlos,

I have always strongly disagreed with those who reduce the quarter mile capability of a Porsche to the least important thing a sportscar does. From my experience a quarter mile time tells me how quickly a Porsche from a hairpin or any first gear corner. Meaning a corner on a track where the driver must downshift to first gear and then accelerates through all the next four gears to the next corner. I found this important because that's where your most frequent passing opportunity exists. I would try to outbrake my opponent then it would be necessary to accelerate past him out of that corner. I have found quarter mile times to be helpful in that respect.

And I always ask if quarter mile times are so unimportant why Porsche and other sportscar builders insert them into their sales brochures?

Also, in America many times you will be out driving your sportscar on a public road and as irresonsible as it is if a Ford GT or a viper or a new 575 HP 997 turbo pulls up next to you. And the road is clear of people and safe for other cars. Quarter mile times suddenly become very important. We don't have an autobahn in America. Yes it's immature but we are after all Americans.

W8MM

The simple answer is that the car-buying public is very skeptical of horsepower and weight claims by manufacturers. Drag-racing results are a more dependable yardstick of comparison. Performance car makers have known this for the past 40 years and dare not shrink from publishing them.



On the other hand, not every car nut is still re-running scenes from American Graffiti in their everyday lives. I would think that a vehicular sophisticate like you would be able to think more deeply about where 1/4 mile times come from, and how that applies to the racing situations you have mentioned.

If a car has some grip and/or coordination challenges when leaving the line, that doesn't necessarily mean that corner-exit acceleration is compromised to the extent that the 1/4 mile time might indicate. The same can be said of too-tall-to-be-1/4-mile-optimum gearing in the lower gears (1st & 2nd - maybe 3rd) that is routinely found in really fast race cars.

It seems to me that for your chosen comparison on the track that you should concentrate on 50 to 100 mph times, or acceleration (in g's) at 80 mph, or some other at-speed dynamic measurement to make your arguement hold water.

This is not any attempt at a flame, I'm only trying to raise the bar for discussion of things I find important.

Let's chat some more.

Les Quam

Mike,
American graffiti is my all time favorite movie.
Second favorite is Bullitt.
Third favorite is Le Mans
I am not a vehicular sophisticate.

Mike,
As an accomplished engineer type of course you have chosen to try to reinvent the wheel. Quarter mile times in my opinion are simply a point of measurement from A to B. Like ANY test of a car variables must be factored in. Whether its 0 to 60 or 50 to 100 variables apply.
However I think you and your gang of vehicular sophisticate types are missing the BIG picture.

Here is the BIIIIG picture not one car manufacturer is building cars today with a so called drag pack option ( which I think is a tragedy). All the builders are creating road cars. Therefore all of the CGT competition such as viper,Ford GT,Gallardo,SLR,Enzo. All quote and are proud to do so their quarter mile times. Not because they are drag strip designed cars but because it is an accurate reflection of performance. Porsche
underestimated in my opinion the time in which it would take the
competition to match many of the CGT performance claims.

Also , Mike you never explained to me why Porsche is using a radio and air delete car for their test? I am sure you ordered yours with radio air delete like everyone else right?
You also never responded to why this carbon fibre technological wonder will way 3100 pounds with a radio and air. About the same weight as a GT 3, Gt 2 and Z06 vette. as far as I know Porsche refuses to release the structural rigidity figures for this car so don't fall back on that argument.

And finally quit showing off your computer skills with that American graffiti picture you somehow scanned on your post. You make us computer cavemen look bad. But I know you vehicular sophisticate types enjoy such things.

fc-racer

Les, I think, as with most Porsche cars, that your decision will only truly be made when you actually drive the car. No numbers, no lap time figures, no spec sheets will allow you to make your decision, it is only that emotional attachment, or lack thereof, that will determine if you want to own a CGT.

The PO of my 993T cancelled his CGT order and moved the deposit to a GT3 when Porsche announced the price change. He was not a happy camper, but he does love his GT3. He took it out to Portland International Raceway with 800km on the Odo, 500 of which were racked up on the drive down

Les Quam

Fc-Racer,
You my friend are 100% correct such a decision will be strictly an emotional one. When the first one comes in to my dealer next month and I get to see and at least ride in a production version that will determine everything.

944CS

i think we can compare the depreciation that a CGT might incurr to what the 959 has incurred....both were and are technologically the top of porsche's pile for their decades....and i know the 959 wasn't officially imported but if you had enough money for the car you could get it in....but i still see 959's in the $200K range....with regard to the 997 turbo coming close to CGT performance look at the 993TT compared to the 959..i think a similar comparison can be made...it didn't hurt the 959's value

s993s

Am I the only one walking away with the impression that...

(Edit By John D.

I won't tolerate personal attacks in this Rennlist Forum. You are banned until you e-mail me at admin@rennlist.com and explain why you should be the exception.

John)