tstafford

Note: Posting this here because, while OT, seems this is the best audience for the topic.

Mostly because I have too much time on my hands but also in response to a handful of questions other RLers, I thought I’d jot down my thoughts about driving a Singer. Nearly all of the material on the web is from reviewers who are “borrowing” the car rather than owners. There just aren’t enough cars out there for people to discuss them in places like RL.

Me - I’m a driver not a collector. I’ve owned tons of cars, the majority of them Porsche including most variants of GT but never more than three or four at a time including my race car and a DD. I consider myself an above average driver - SCCA full comp license, SCCA Pro Radical license and I do some DE instruction. I run Radical races pretty regularly so I understand things like suspension tuning, brake bias, etc from a driver’s perspective (but not an engineering one). Only relevance of any of that is it shapes how I approach the car.

Car is used - not my spec. Purchased while I wait on Singer build mine. I could go in to what it’s like to work with them, but that’s a whole different topic. Maybe equally or more so interesting, but for now I’ll focus on driving a Singer. Car is “Atlanta” commission: 2WD, 4.0L, 6-spd, ceramics, Ohlins. I could also get in to why I bought a Singer which is a story about the slippery slope of enjoying air cooled but wanting “more of that special feeling”. . . Anyway.

Purpose of the car is a mix of DD and road trip duties. I travel frequently from Nashville to Atlanta for events at AMP and Road ATL and want to enjoy the Singer for some of those trips. IMO it’s okay, not great for this type of duty. By comparison my 993 C4S is a better road trip car than the Singer. The Singer lacks cruise control, the HVAC is inferior to the 993, storage is worse (fixed bucket seats), the exhaust drones at 3K and it's pungent because it was specced w/o cats (possible to retro fit with some hoop jumping). A big plus however is that the car gives the impression of being extremely reliable. Everything mechanical is new, solid and doesn’t feel fragile. When I take the 993 on road trips I always have a slight wonder if it will break down, Singer hasn’t felt that way.

Whether it’s necessary or not, there are implicit trade-offs between beauty and durability/ease of use evident in the car. For example, “Atlanta" has gorgeous painted floor boards with leather piping. So happened that the day I picked the car up it was raining. The water from my shoes was enough to break down the glue holding the piping to the metal - water soluble glue?? Another example: one of the fog lamps is clouded thanks to the same day one (and subsequent) rain. This kind of stuff unfortunately might leave the impression that the Singer is most at home on display or maybe on a track in perfect weather. I’m choosing to believe it’s just working out the kinks on a car that wasn’t driven much before. Easy enough fix on the piping - some careful application of Gorilla Glue! And Singer has, per their reputation, said that any time I want to send the light assembly back they will repair it. Of course I don’t particularly want to take the car off the road for that.

On the road the car is spectacular to drive. The mix of all the elements that make up a sports car are very well balanced. It’s not too much of anything and it’s enough of everything:

• The best aspect is the steering. It is incredibly precise, provides feedback w/o being annoying and just works right. Confidence inspiring because you get instantaneous information about how your input is impacting the attitude of chassis.
• Suspension works in harmony with the steering. The car is currently set up for road use rather than track. I’d want to make some adjustments if I was going to track it regularly but that’s easy with the Ohlins. Has much more dampening than my 993 on Bilsteins and less than a 991.2 GT3 on stock suspension. Leans toward the harsh side - enthusiasts will enjoy it and spouses probably would find it rough/bumpy
• Brakes are unbelievable. And I only know this from the track. Solid initial bite, massive stopping power, no fade combined with 2700 lbs is sublime. Far more than you need on the road. But no dust is nice!
• Gear box is marginally better than the 993 which has Fister SSK/GR. Any superiority on feel is probably attributable to the newness of the parts in the Singer rather than anything else. The gearing is of course better because Singer works hard to get that nicely mated to the Ed Pink motor. It takes a while for the gearbox oil to warm up and make the shifts easier. When cold it requires attention to get it through the gears.
• Like everything else, the motor seems right at home in the car. Provides plenty of power to move the car but you have to work to get it like other NA air cooled. It doesn’t have the down low torque like a 991.2 GT3. It’s all you need but nothing more. Flooring a GT3 getting on a highway will scare an unsuspecting passenger, Singer doesn’t have that type of low end torque although it’s only slightly slower to 60. When in the power band it’s very quick but not crazy fast.

It makes some sense to me when reviewers say that if they could only have one car, they’d want it to be a Singer. I don’t agree with that but I get it. It’s a driver’s car and by that I mean it enhances all the sensory aspects of driving. Its overall feel is “mechanical”, it’s noisy, it rides pretty harsh and it has no nannies. Singer has created a very, very engaging environment in which to enjoy driving. I can’t imagine a better car for folks who love to go out and do canyon or backroad runs. But it’s not sufficiently easy to use to make it a single car for most folks. It could easily be the only sports car I owned but I’d still want something else to use when I’m feeling lazy.

Last/not least: One of the best things about Singer ownership is the after purchase customer care. While I suppose it’s expected that they’d treat their customers well, it’s truly exceptional and very 2020. I’m able to text back and forth with their extremely knowledgable guys and get near immediate answers. They’ll FT with my mechanics, etc. It’s truly exceptional.

If you have any specific questions or want to see a pic of something from the car, let me know. I’m not that busy these days. . .Stay safe/healthy.

tstafford

Few more pics:

bbs993tt

Hey Tim, thanks for the informative writeup! Very interesting stuff and can't wait to see your build! I think the most surprising part is the lack of low end torque in the motor. I would have thought there'd be torque for days. Stay healthy!

tstafford

Thanks Brian. You stay healthy too.

The low end torque isn't insufficient but it doesn't have that initial push that the modern cars have. I referenced the 991.2 GT3 because it's NA and also a reference point familiar to many folks here. The Singer is plenty quick and demonstrably more responsive than my 993. But it doesn't have that initial off the line push that the current GT3 has - and in fairness the .1 GT3 didn't really either. So many other aspects of the car (steering, braking, suspension) are all amazing that the motor one area that I could see folks being somewhat less enthusiastic about.

Again I'm not an engineer but I received a PM that jogged my memory - Atlanta is specced to easily be 50 state legal meaning it has a cam that meets CA requirements. I suspect there are other, more aggressive versions of the 4.0L that wouldn't meet CA standards and might have more grunt. To that end, Nashville (my car) will not have the CA legal cam.

Garydose

Outside of colour, any notable spec differences between the Atlanta car and your commissioned build?
From what I've read the plenum intake would provide more low down torque over ITB

tstafford

Planned mechanical differences: seam weld, different cam, plenum, high flow cats.

erikerik

Thanks for the write up. I have a fully built 993 and I’m really curious how the singer’s drive compared to a properly built 964/993.

anyone in LA have a singer and want to do a canyon run together?

tstafford

^^^ Erik: Wish I was in LA because that would be a very interesting comparison.

Not to start a debate on the merits of Singer vs. and individual build, but I can share some perspective.

My bet is that an individual build could accomplish something like 80% of what Singer does for like 50% of the cost. There's no science in those numbers! Also an individual build could emphasize different attributes than Singer - downplay the fancy coachwork, increase speed/make it a hot rod, turbo vs. NA, etc. My take (and it's just that) - Singer is more of an assembler than a manufacturer and they use a lot of generally available parts. Names we all know: Rennline, Ohlins, KW, OE Porsche. They provide a turnkey solution for folks (like me) that don't have the know-how or relationships to project manage this ourselves. Also if one doesn't put much/any value on owning a "Singer" and being part of that community (which is active in its own way) the calculus tips even more in favor of the individual build. And it's totally reasonable to be focused solely on the performance of the car, results of the build rather than a name and an owners community!

There are three things that jump to mind where Singer has an advantage that the individual build would need to work very hard to overcome:

• 150+ cars built all to very similar mechanical spec. Just having done this so many times means they have institutional knowledge, have refined the process and can more accurately predict results. There's value to being up that learning curve. While someone could have tons of experience doing individual builds, they are individual and as such have a lower transferability of knowledge
• Exclusive parts relationships. They have a handful of important components that have been tuned with the manufacturer after years of working with Singer. These parts aren't generally available and play key roles in the car. In some cases I think this is very important
• Carbon body - One area where Singer appears to stand out is their experience dealing with carbon fiber. A tour of the shops leaves one with an impression that they REALLY know what they're doing on this. Even more so after talking to their guys. So much goes in to this to get it to look just right. Using carbon to drop the weight w/o having to make compromises elsewhere (like interior details, body trim, etc.) allows for a 2,700 lb car that doesn't look stripped out. For those (like me) that want a thrilling street feel w/o the need to go super fast on public roads, the light weight aspect of the Singer is hard to beat

IMO - there's a place for both. Depends on owner preferences and of course budget.

mclaudio

Thank you. I’ve been contemplating my next do-it-all-except-race street 911.

Your race background and your Singer comparison to other 911s (HVAC effectiveness, noise levels, low end torque, exhaust drone/smell, damper comparisons, steering, brakes) was invaluable for me in taking your feedback in context relative to my own preferences.

DreamCarrera

Tim, thanks for sharing your first-hand Singer experience.

While it is obvious, after reading your review, that you really enjoy "Atlanta", I can't help but sense an undertone to your post where you are not completely satisfied with your Singer experience. Are you having any second thoughts about commissioning your own Singer build, especially now that you own a Singer to help scratch the itch? After all, these cars are not exactly cheap...on the other hand, they do seem to be increasing in value nicely so a current build may turn out to be a money making endeavor - assuming we are not in the early stages of an apocalypse. HAHA

tstafford

I’m worn out by all the videos of people putting Singer on a pedestal, acting in awe of it and not giving any critical feedback. And it’s equally uninteresting nor helpful to have a discussion about “value” and whether Singer is worth the money. I wanted to apply a critical owner’s eye to the car and point out flaws I’ve noticed in using as a near DD. Forget the money, forget the reviews, what’s it really like to own/drive the car? That perspective isn’t something I’ve seen anywhere on the net. That’s what I’m trying to do and probably comes across as negative in a sea of glowing reviews.

I bought Atlanta for two reasons. YOLO - the last few weeks have made me very glad about that decision! And also to learn what I could to enhance my build. So picking this one apart is just part of the process of making “Nashville” better.

I’ve never driven a road car that is even close to as thrilling as the Singer at normal speeds. Driving the 993 and the Singer back to back is night/day. Owning Atlanta has made me want my build even more because I’ll get all the things I like in this car but the chance to improve the areas that aren’t exactly to my taste. I feel really lucky to be able to have this experience this way and, barring apocalypse, I’m committed to the path because the end product is definitely worth it to me.

I love the question and I’m happy to answer any others. I enjoy sharing the experience.

DreamCarrera

This is great praise for Singer. The fact that you already own a previously commissioned car but still want to expend the considerable time, effort and money to commission your own car really speaks volumes. I like how you are using the Atlanta as a "testbed" of sorts for your own commission to help you refine your final specs, that is very clever. Best of luck with the Nashville commission, I hope it exceeds all of your expectations.

I love reading your unfiltered first-hand experiences with the reimagined 911 but, unfortunately, it is making me even more anxious to try one myself.

Carlos993

Hi Tim,

Beautiful car, congratulations. Singers are clearly special cars, but when I spoke to them a little under 2 years ago what prevented me from pulling the trigger was the build period (inclusive of the queue), and the uncertainty around the wait and build period. There were stories of 2+ years' wait for customer cars. Is this still the case currently?

In the meantime, I decided to go the build-your-own route, and have been very happy with 2 993 4.0s completed, and a third car (964 narrow body based) on the way. The 993s have surpassed my expectations - not as top shelf in terms of finishing as Singers, but more focused on my specific wants in the project, and the unfettered ability to change things on the fly as we were building the car was a big plus.

Is the (realistic) wait still 2+ years?

tstafford

Can't comment on the impact of COVID, but if you'd asked me that question 45 days ago I would have said yes. My expectation was that my car would take ~2 years to build including the initial wait in the queue (which I'm still in).

Carlos993

Thank you Tim, enjoy your cars.