991 cup
11-19-2014, 05:07 PM
#16
Banned
Thread Starter
A new gt3 car starts at 350k euro and cost a fortune to run ..! I was doing similar times around donnington park 1.06s than my mate was lapping today in the Aston Martin gt3 ..!
The 991 is Id say 1.5 seconds a lap faster than the gen2 997 ..! Around say a 2min lap
The 991 is Id say 1.5 seconds a lap faster than the gen2 997 ..! Around say a 2min lap
11-19-2014, 05:35 PM
#17
The gap was over 2s/lap for the best drivers at Mosport (1:20m lap).
11-19-2014, 05:41 PM
#19
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It's pure $$$$ IMO.
991 Cups are virtually non-existent at the club level. You might see one or two show up at Sebring or the Glen but that's usually because they're using it as a test venue for an upcoming IMSA race. Even GTC4 (997.1) & GTC5 (997.2) classes are thin at club level in all but the biggest races. The issue with running Cup spec classes is that you're held to PMNA rebuild pricing and you can't modify the car to make it easier or less costly to drive. A lot of guys will try a Cup for a season or two then either drop down to a significantly less costly to run Cayman/Boxster or jump into an ex-Rolex/Grand Am car with upgraded motor/brakes/suspension/ABS/paddles, etc, etc. for a modest delta. Or as some are doing now, leave PCA racing altogether and go try Trans Am or some other even less costly option.
So that means for now the 991 Cup really only makes sense for Porsche's one-make series, i.e., IMSA GT3 Challenge. Next year adds PWC Cup class, though it remains to be seen how many new teams come in verses poaching of IMSA/TUDOR teams – something we’re already seeing. The problem here is that it's big bucks to make this jump. Carrera Cup GB and Carrera Cup Germany take place across geographic regions not much larger than New England. IMSA GT3 Challenge criss-crosses the US 3-4 times in a season. Those 4,000-6,000 mile round trip hauls get mighty expensive at $1.50-$2.00/mile, and that doesn't count support, tires, consumables, fuel plus food, lodging, and travel for the drivers. On top of that, half the guys running GT3 Challenge here are still using 997 Cups.
Last I checked Carrera Cup Germany had something 40+ competitors. That compares to 8-10 in the US that do the full schedule. I don't know what the UK and German guys spend but by my calcualtions you're looking at an easy $25k/race weekend here if you factor in full costs, ex up-front car acquisition. Fewer guys at the top mean fewer cars turning over, which keeps prices high and club racers away.
If Porsche/IMSA were smart they'd set up regional schedules/championships that rolled up into national level. That would likely bring participation numbers up.
As always, the economics for the club racer change with each new Cup iteration so we'll see what happens when the 991.2 rolls out. Mind you I’m not critical of the car. I look forward to driving/owning one, but this is my view as a club racer who’s run the numbers.
991 Cups are virtually non-existent at the club level. You might see one or two show up at Sebring or the Glen but that's usually because they're using it as a test venue for an upcoming IMSA race. Even GTC4 (997.1) & GTC5 (997.2) classes are thin at club level in all but the biggest races. The issue with running Cup spec classes is that you're held to PMNA rebuild pricing and you can't modify the car to make it easier or less costly to drive. A lot of guys will try a Cup for a season or two then either drop down to a significantly less costly to run Cayman/Boxster or jump into an ex-Rolex/Grand Am car with upgraded motor/brakes/suspension/ABS/paddles, etc, etc. for a modest delta. Or as some are doing now, leave PCA racing altogether and go try Trans Am or some other even less costly option.
So that means for now the 991 Cup really only makes sense for Porsche's one-make series, i.e., IMSA GT3 Challenge. Next year adds PWC Cup class, though it remains to be seen how many new teams come in verses poaching of IMSA/TUDOR teams – something we’re already seeing. The problem here is that it's big bucks to make this jump. Carrera Cup GB and Carrera Cup Germany take place across geographic regions not much larger than New England. IMSA GT3 Challenge criss-crosses the US 3-4 times in a season. Those 4,000-6,000 mile round trip hauls get mighty expensive at $1.50-$2.00/mile, and that doesn't count support, tires, consumables, fuel plus food, lodging, and travel for the drivers. On top of that, half the guys running GT3 Challenge here are still using 997 Cups.
Last I checked Carrera Cup Germany had something 40+ competitors. That compares to 8-10 in the US that do the full schedule. I don't know what the UK and German guys spend but by my calcualtions you're looking at an easy $25k/race weekend here if you factor in full costs, ex up-front car acquisition. Fewer guys at the top mean fewer cars turning over, which keeps prices high and club racers away.
If Porsche/IMSA were smart they'd set up regional schedules/championships that rolled up into national level. That would likely bring participation numbers up.
As always, the economics for the club racer change with each new Cup iteration so we'll see what happens when the 991.2 rolls out. Mind you I’m not critical of the car. I look forward to driving/owning one, but this is my view as a club racer who’s run the numbers.
11-19-2014, 05:47 PM
#20
For example
Hockenheim 2014: Pole 1:43 Race 1:44
Hockenheim 2012: Pole 1:46 Race 1:43
Spa 2014: Pole 2:23.4 Race 2:26.2
Spa 2012: Pole 2:23.9 Race 2:26.2
And many more. I just picked these in a couple of minutes. Not in the mood to do Carrera Cup
Hockenheim 2014: Pole 1:43 Race 1:44
Hockenheim 2012: Pole 1:46 Race 1:43
Spa 2014: Pole 2:23.4 Race 2:26.2
Spa 2012: Pole 2:23.9 Race 2:26.2
And many more. I just picked these in a couple of minutes. Not in the mood to do Carrera Cup
11-19-2014, 05:58 PM
#21
Actually, the better drivers experienced larger gap between 997 and 991 lap times (same drivers), as demonstrated by young stars Hargrove and Pigot who were vice-champion and champion in the Pro Mazda Championship this year.
11-19-2014, 05:59 PM
#22
How can you compare lap times on different dates/track conditions ?
11-19-2014, 06:09 PM
#23
its a theme that runs throughout the series. the 991 is not 2s faster than the 997 in pro hands. Ever. I cited those laptimes just as an example. You can go through every result from the 997 and 991 races and plot them (I did).
Then you can drive the car (I did).
Then you can ask a pro driver (I did) and he says that on a good day its 1s faster than a 997 supercup
Intermediate / non pro / club drivers are 2-3s /lap faster in a 991 than a 997. In fact the pros hate the 991 for bunching the field so much compared to the 997 since its so much easier to extract the laptime from it.
Just my $0.02
Then you can drive the car (I did).
Then you can ask a pro driver (I did) and he says that on a good day its 1s faster than a 997 supercup
Intermediate / non pro / club drivers are 2-3s /lap faster in a 991 than a 997. In fact the pros hate the 991 for bunching the field so much compared to the 997 since its so much easier to extract the laptime from it.
Just my $0.02
11-19-2014, 08:19 PM
#24
its a theme that runs throughout the series. the 991 is not 2s faster than the 997 in pro hands. Ever. I cited those laptimes just as an example. You can go through every result from the 997 and 991 races and plot them (I did).
Then you can drive the car (I did).
Then you can ask a pro driver (I did) and he says that on a good day its 1s faster than a 997 supercup
Intermediate / non pro / club drivers are 2-3s /lap faster in a 991 than a 997. In fact the pros hate the 991 for bunching the field so much compared to the 997 since its so much easier to extract the laptime from it.
Just my $0.02
Then you can drive the car (I did).
Then you can ask a pro driver (I did) and he says that on a good day its 1s faster than a 997 supercup
Intermediate / non pro / club drivers are 2-3s /lap faster in a 991 than a 997. In fact the pros hate the 991 for bunching the field so much compared to the 997 since its so much easier to extract the laptime from it.
Just my $0.02
11-19-2014, 08:28 PM
#25
It's pure $$$$ IMO.
991 Cups are virtually non-existent at the club level. You might see one or two show up at Sebring or the Glen but that's usually because they're using it as a test venue for an upcoming IMSA race. Even GTC4 (997.1) & GTC5 (997.2) classes are thin at club level in all but the biggest races. The issue with running Cup spec classes is that you're held to PMNA rebuild pricing and you can't modify the car to make it easier or less costly to drive. A lot of guys will try a Cup for a season or two then either drop down to a significantly less costly to run Cayman/Boxster or jump into an ex-Rolex/Grand Am car with upgraded motor/brakes/suspension/ABS/paddles, etc, etc. for a modest delta. Or as some are doing now, leave PCA racing altogether and go try Trans Am or some other even less costly option.
So that means for now the 991 Cup really only makes sense for Porsche's one-make series, i.e., IMSA GT3 Challenge. Next year adds PWC Cup class, though it remains to be seen how many new teams come in verses poaching of IMSA/TUDOR teams – something we’re already seeing. The problem here is that it's big bucks to make this jump. Carrera Cup GB and Carrera Cup Germany take place across geographic regions not much larger than New England. IMSA GT3 Challenge criss-crosses the US 3-4 times in a season. Those 4,000-6,000 mile round trip hauls get mighty expensive at $1.50-$2.00/mile, and that doesn't count support, tires, consumables, fuel plus food, lodging, and travel for the drivers. On top of that, half the guys running GT3 Challenge here are still using 997 Cups.
Last I checked Carrera Cup Germany had something 40+ competitors. That compares to 8-10 in the US that do the full schedule. I don't know what the UK and German guys spend but by my calcualtions you're looking at an easy $25k/race weekend here if you factor in full costs, ex up-front car acquisition. Fewer guys at the top mean fewer cars turning over, which keeps prices high and club racers away.
If Porsche/IMSA were smart they'd set up regional schedules/championships that rolled up into national level. That would likely bring participation numbers up.
As always, the economics for the club racer change with each new Cup iteration so we'll see what happens when the 991.2 rolls out. Mind you I’m not critical of the car. I look forward to driving/owning one, but this is my view as a club racer who’s run the numbers.
991 Cups are virtually non-existent at the club level. You might see one or two show up at Sebring or the Glen but that's usually because they're using it as a test venue for an upcoming IMSA race. Even GTC4 (997.1) & GTC5 (997.2) classes are thin at club level in all but the biggest races. The issue with running Cup spec classes is that you're held to PMNA rebuild pricing and you can't modify the car to make it easier or less costly to drive. A lot of guys will try a Cup for a season or two then either drop down to a significantly less costly to run Cayman/Boxster or jump into an ex-Rolex/Grand Am car with upgraded motor/brakes/suspension/ABS/paddles, etc, etc. for a modest delta. Or as some are doing now, leave PCA racing altogether and go try Trans Am or some other even less costly option.
So that means for now the 991 Cup really only makes sense for Porsche's one-make series, i.e., IMSA GT3 Challenge. Next year adds PWC Cup class, though it remains to be seen how many new teams come in verses poaching of IMSA/TUDOR teams – something we’re already seeing. The problem here is that it's big bucks to make this jump. Carrera Cup GB and Carrera Cup Germany take place across geographic regions not much larger than New England. IMSA GT3 Challenge criss-crosses the US 3-4 times in a season. Those 4,000-6,000 mile round trip hauls get mighty expensive at $1.50-$2.00/mile, and that doesn't count support, tires, consumables, fuel plus food, lodging, and travel for the drivers. On top of that, half the guys running GT3 Challenge here are still using 997 Cups.
Last I checked Carrera Cup Germany had something 40+ competitors. That compares to 8-10 in the US that do the full schedule. I don't know what the UK and German guys spend but by my calcualtions you're looking at an easy $25k/race weekend here if you factor in full costs, ex up-front car acquisition. Fewer guys at the top mean fewer cars turning over, which keeps prices high and club racers away.
If Porsche/IMSA were smart they'd set up regional schedules/championships that rolled up into national level. That would likely bring participation numbers up.
As always, the economics for the club racer change with each new Cup iteration so we'll see what happens when the 991.2 rolls out. Mind you I’m not critical of the car. I look forward to driving/owning one, but this is my view as a club racer who’s run the numbers.
11-19-2014, 08:40 PM
#26
no argument about that.
11-19-2014, 08:47 PM
#27
anyway, back to Karl's original question.
Its an expensive car with a lot of new tech, very little carryover from the 997 with daunting repair prospects. Insurance on 991 is a lot more expensive than 997. List goes on. What NIZER said is true, once prices soften and aftermarket suppliers start showing up and a broader experience base is developed demand will pick up.
Its an expensive car with a lot of new tech, very little carryover from the 997 with daunting repair prospects. Insurance on 991 is a lot more expensive than 997. List goes on. What NIZER said is true, once prices soften and aftermarket suppliers start showing up and a broader experience base is developed demand will pick up.
11-19-2014, 11:37 PM
#29
Intermediate
When our cars crashed normally If bad we just re-shell ..Worst I have Seen fixed is a rear quater being changed ..! My mate did a rear quarter in his 991 this year and it had to go to Porsche approached bodyshop ..! Let's be honest if u smash your 997 or 996 bad it won't be running the next day anyway esp if your a small team ..so I don't see the difference to be honest I have never seen a 997 being pulled or anything like that ..Carrera cup so competitive anything 50/50 fixable we call for new tub as all the cars insured ..hence why the cars are all lovely ..like new
I do agree im sure it easier to fix a 996 or 997 but there are different animals ..the 991 is stiffer and lighter which equals faster ..!
I do agree im sure it easier to fix a 996 or 997 but there are different animals ..the 991 is stiffer and lighter which equals faster ..!
