TudorMiron

Are they available to purchase? I thought that GTLM rubber is not available to public.

Thanks
Ted

TudorMiron

I'm in Moscow/Russia. You'll be surprised how little (relatively) money was spent on this project. Much less than cost of a new cup car and that's including salaries, shop rent, materials and all the tools/equipment. Thing is that everything (chassis/bodywork) was done in house without much equipment by very small team. We started as 4 people team but had to shrink to 3 guys because of budget restrictions.
For now we'll compete in russian TA but later plan to visit TA UK and may be WTAC next season. Too bad Yokohama doesn't even make tires (wtac eligible) in our size.

Thanks
Ted

TudorMiron

Very interesting... Those R compounds that they run at WTAC is not the same sh$$$t rubber as normal 050 is?

Thanks
Ted

333pg333

No, that's not 100% accurate. Well, partially. There were rumours about Super Soft compounds available to the top teams and sure, Tilton, Nemo, Scorch etc might have used them. Seriously only good for 1 hot lap. But most of the rest of us use the standard AO50 in Soft. Most cars get maybe 2 hot laps and then a cooldown. They can be used again for a limited amount of heat cycles but again, this is very dependent on the car. The awd Evos and Nissans are pretty heavy and the front tyres suffer. We on the other hand seem to be able to get more than that out of our rwd 50/50 balanced 944 turbo. Being only 1150kgs wet also helps. I'm sure with some good research there would be a decent soft qually slick that would meet your needs. You mention running on 050 rubber before but I am not so sure. These R specs are meant to only be available in Japan and down here so perhaps it's a different tyre you've used previously? The R specs we use are pretty good. (See Avatar pic) They suffer against a slick due to softer sidewalls but we manage to do ok with them against some pretty fast cars on Michelin Slicks in our local Porsche Club events. In that results page we were actually on scrubbed Medium AO50's where the other cars in the Open class were all on Michelin or Hoosier slicks. Of course we run a lot more Aero than they do. On the soft compound and with some mods since late 2013 we would get into the high 1:01's on that layout now, maybe faster. The other cars wouldn't be much quicker than they displayed there. (Note: Our car is dual driven hence two times in the sheet below for the 1986 944 Turbo Black. I have caught up a bit more since last year. ;-) )

I know that they're running a separate GTR class and allowing them to run on Yoko 19" slicks. If you're seriously considering coming down here you might want to look at them to at least do some testing. Your build is really fantastic. Congratulations. I actually sent a link to the guy that runs Superlap, Ian Baker. He's extremely busy so I haven't heard back from him but I know he's keen to find cars from O.S. that are interested in making it down here. I know your car would attract a lot of attention. I am not so sure you could run in the GTR class as you might have gone beyond their rule limits so you might have to go into Pro class against Tilton, Scorch, Hammerhead and the like (Sounds like a Marvel movie!) but it would be great to see your car here among the world's best T.A. cars! Do you have any video yet?

wanna911

No they are not. Well documented.

333pg333

Would like to read that documentation. That was all meant to be discontinued prior to WTAC 2013 iirc. So with most, if not all of the competitors from 2013 and 2014 running standard Soft and even Medium compounds I believe we're all on even footing. The opinion is still that a good slick is faster but just takes longer to warm up. It's a pity that they don't make the R spec in anything wider than a 295 so that the rear engine guys could try and step up to the plate.

wanna911

You don't seriously think these cars are 7 seconds faster than a well driven cup car on slicks on off the shelf r-comps do you? Let's just keep things in perspective here. The special R comps are not just rumored. And if they are still breaking records it's safe to assume they didn't regress to off the shelf tires.

333pg333

I can't prove or disprove anything. I can say that the Aero is way ahead of a Cup car and then compare power to weight ratios. Put it this way. Our car is on par with a Cup time and will probably beat it come October. I know what tyres we run. Our car has H pattern gearbox, pre war trailing arm rear suspension, single overhead cam motor, no abs or traction control. We aren't relying on trickery or technology. It's balance and aero plus our power to weight is pretty good too. We are in Open class and don't even have a flat bottom or diffuser on our car. Move up two more classes where they're allowed far greater latitude with the rules. If the Super Softs are still available (and having spoken to the tyre importer and the contest organiser I don't think they are) how much extra time per lap do you think they're gaining by using them? What, 7 seconds? They'd be lucky if it were 1-2 at most. Wouldn't be 2 in fact. So credit where credit is due.

wanna911

My point is that 6-7 seconds faster than a 7 cup on a 1:30 track is Tudor GTE-LM times. On basic rcomps? Would mean they are several seconds faster than those too. Because of that were the case, slicks would be several seconds faster than that even. Maybe amateur cup drivers. But not the good ones.

thingo

I don't quite understand how a tyre with tread can be faster than a slick?

333pg333

We don't have Tudor GTE-LM as such down here but probably quite similar. When I googled images of those cars it was a mixed bag but am assuming this is where RSR's and the like race? If so, then yes, these cars could easily be a few seconds quicker than them judging by the Aero differences. The most recent lap record at Sydney Motorsport Park by an Aussie Supercar V8 was back in 2012 and was 1:30.9 and these cars are usually very close in times to the Cup cars. Allow a couple of seconds for this year's cars to be generous and say mid 1:28's. I am pretty sure the V8's did get into the 1:28's in qualifying last time they were there but it mustn't be allowed as a track record. However to be fair to this discussion lets count it in.

There was quite a bit of backlash about these supposed Super Softs and feel confidant that they're not used anymore. I suspect that the times will only improve in this year's WTAC so look for a low :24 or even into the :23's. The guy driving the Tilton Evo has done more laps around the track than anyone else too so that is an advantage. Also, the latest R comps aren't available in the US. The standard soft AO50 is far better than it's predecessor by a number of seconds on the same track. I know most US Porsche guys tend to think of MSPC as the R comp tyre to use and then move onto Hoosiers or slicks. The latest generation of R comp tyres like the AO50 or the Z221 Hankook are way ahead of the MSPC or the old AO48 that you guys have.

wanna911

That goes back to my original point. These are no ordinary rcomps. The TA cars here pretty much run cup car times, on slicks and semi slicks (z214, R80, etc). So unless the tires are not as fast as those (which still makes them much faster than average rcomps) then that still doesn't leave room for the claims. Sierra Sierra runs about 4 seconds off the pace at WTA. If the tires over there are a regular rcomp, they would be slower than a proper cup. GST runs about even with cups on continental slicks. They run similar times to sierra. Unless the a050 are as fast as the two tires mentioned, does not correlate. And if they are. Proves my point.

333pg333

Sierra Sierra last ran down here back in 2011 and did a low 1:29. Their tricky plan was to run 45-50psi and just blast everyone off the track. Their aero was blunt and ineffective. Aero has progressed a LOT since then. So if you are determined that they ran the special tyre then how do you account for our car which we project getting into a similar lap time with a LOT less boost and definitely running an off the rack standard Soft compound R spec tyre? You say these are no ordinary R comp. Well you're both right and wrong. In comparison to what you run in the US these are different/superior but they can be bought from the Yoko and H/kook agent any day of the week down here. The days of the secret super soft are gone, otherwise we would be offered them.

The biggest difference between US racecars and some others is Aero. In the US I have found it to be behind other countries (as a generalisation). Put in more cubes and wider rubber is the inherent mindset that still pervades the US scene. Or they are restricted by the rules.

You can prove your point to yourself but I can tell you that we are definitely running on off the shelf R comps and are already into Cup car times with more to come. Our car is nothing special compared to the others in the 2 higher classes. I am interested to see what Slick the OP might run on. The Michelin take a little too long to heat up but we're considering trying some slicks next year. We will be able to give an unbiased account of the differences then.

Petevb

I'd look into soft compound/ hill climb and time attack spec Avon radial slicks, available up through 19" diameters. I've autocrossed on them, and the word is they are about 1 second faster than a Hoosier A6 over a 60 second course. Guys use them because they let you attack from the first corner in SCCA, where that's critical. I don't know exactly how they compare to the softest Michelins, but I suspect the Michelins take longer to come up to temp but are ultimately faster.

Link
Compounds

wanna911

Blunt an ineffective? They were on the podium both times they were there. Lost by 2 tenths the second time. And actually beat Tilton if I'm not mistaken. lol. That's still beside the point, which is that these are not average r-comps. May not be the super secret one's but that's not how you presented it. No one here really does time attack in that format. Huge budgets for 1 lap wonders. Mostly because the rules and tire manufacturers are set to bias for AWD cars with the small tires. Hence why the fastest US TA car (FXMD) hasn't gone over there.