Some Questions for those who run with NASA
05-06-2011, 11:01 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
Some Questions for those who run with NASA
Hi there,
I've been lurking around this section for a little while and read a lot of the Porsche converted cars versus Cup car threads specific to running cost, maintenance, etc. I feel pretty comfortable with the amount of information I got. In all likelihood I won't be running with PCA much, if at all, hence the question for those who run with NASA. To answer the question why - my wife races a car with NASA and I have been for a while, that's where all my friends are racing so I'm going to stick with it (lets face it, I'm just there to have fun and hopefully put up a good fight).
Two classes I'd likely to see the most action in would be GTS4 and ST2 (depending on the number of entries) or at least that is my goal. Frankly, I have no interest running in GTS5 with 997 Cups or ST1 with 600 HP Corvettes. Here are my questions:
1. Realistically, what does a 2003-04 Cup car put out in power? I've seen numbers anywhere from 330 to 370. Obviously, that is a large gap and would make a huge difference in weight to stay compliant.
2. Published weight for Cup seems to be 2575, but I'm guessing that is dry. What's an actual weight of the car post race? I'm a pretty hefty 200-210 pounds, what can I expect to see at the impound on the scales without any ballast?
3. Has anybody ever run a restrictor plate on one of these to keep them compliant? Any feedback/drawbacks (besides having less power)?
4. This is purely asking for people's opinions, but I'm seeing some cars for sale that are Grand Am spec which are less than standard cars (white one from switch cars for example). At 56K or best offer that seems like a real bargain, which makes me wonder why it hasn't sold yet? I don't think it's market, so is it purely the inability to run with PCA in GTC? For me it seems advantages to have some hidden gems in the car to make it handle better without adding power or lowering weight.
5. What else am I missing or should be considering?
I bought Vic's old car, which is a GT3 with triple Motons and everything else possible done to it. I'm a cage away from going racing. But looking at Cup cars popping up under $60K really makes me wonder if I want to do it to a GT3 (basically spend 10,000 to make worth 10,000 less - net loss a cool $20K). At the same time this car is a beast and I know the history. Looking at the PCA track records looks like Fernando did a 1:59 at VIR in his very well prepped GTC trim 996 Cup and one would think a similar car with some more tricks up it's sleeves should be in the same ballpark (assuming the driver is good).
Anyways, hoping for some input from folks who have experience with 996 Cups and running with NASA.
Thanks!
I've been lurking around this section for a little while and read a lot of the Porsche converted cars versus Cup car threads specific to running cost, maintenance, etc. I feel pretty comfortable with the amount of information I got. In all likelihood I won't be running with PCA much, if at all, hence the question for those who run with NASA. To answer the question why - my wife races a car with NASA and I have been for a while, that's where all my friends are racing so I'm going to stick with it (lets face it, I'm just there to have fun and hopefully put up a good fight).
Two classes I'd likely to see the most action in would be GTS4 and ST2 (depending on the number of entries) or at least that is my goal. Frankly, I have no interest running in GTS5 with 997 Cups or ST1 with 600 HP Corvettes. Here are my questions:
1. Realistically, what does a 2003-04 Cup car put out in power? I've seen numbers anywhere from 330 to 370. Obviously, that is a large gap and would make a huge difference in weight to stay compliant.
2. Published weight for Cup seems to be 2575, but I'm guessing that is dry. What's an actual weight of the car post race? I'm a pretty hefty 200-210 pounds, what can I expect to see at the impound on the scales without any ballast?
3. Has anybody ever run a restrictor plate on one of these to keep them compliant? Any feedback/drawbacks (besides having less power)?
4. This is purely asking for people's opinions, but I'm seeing some cars for sale that are Grand Am spec which are less than standard cars (white one from switch cars for example). At 56K or best offer that seems like a real bargain, which makes me wonder why it hasn't sold yet? I don't think it's market, so is it purely the inability to run with PCA in GTC? For me it seems advantages to have some hidden gems in the car to make it handle better without adding power or lowering weight.
5. What else am I missing or should be considering?
I bought Vic's old car, which is a GT3 with triple Motons and everything else possible done to it. I'm a cage away from going racing. But looking at Cup cars popping up under $60K really makes me wonder if I want to do it to a GT3 (basically spend 10,000 to make worth 10,000 less - net loss a cool $20K). At the same time this car is a beast and I know the history. Looking at the PCA track records looks like Fernando did a 1:59 at VIR in his very well prepped GTC trim 996 Cup and one would think a similar car with some more tricks up it's sleeves should be in the same ballpark (assuming the driver is good).
Anyways, hoping for some input from folks who have experience with 996 Cups and running with NASA.
Thanks!
05-06-2011, 11:04 PM
#2
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Thread Starter
Almost forgot, ST2 would be more difficult since it puts a 0.4 penalty on Cup cars right away, plus 0.2 for being under 2950 weight. So really I would need to be at 9.3 hp to weight if I run DOTs (another 0.75 for slicks). For GTS 4 it's basically 8.5 hp to weight unless I run slicks which takes you up to 9.0.
05-07-2011, 12:59 AM
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Oh I have lots to say on this topic and I'm just finishing a rather exemplary Malbec. I love racing NASA out West but each region is surely different. I'll go number to number to attempt to stay on topic....
1). 03'-05' cup motors are identical. I've never seen one dyno under 352 and that was a fresh Motorsports rebuild. Most are 355-365 whp on a Dynojet (required for NASA).
2). With me at 160lb. inc. gear my 03' cup weighed roughly 2775....
3). Never seen a restrictor on a 6-cup but it certainly would work and keep your torque up too. Good idea if necessary to make class.
4). GA spec cars are a hard sells as they aren't GTC3 legal. Additonally, there usually beat-to-crap from years of hard GA racing. If you coudl somehow find one that was retubbed and lightly driven since then it would be a good bet. The ones I've seen have been ridden hard and put away wet, just like my x-wife
....
Converting your street GT3:
They're great cars but need to be considerably lightened to run competitively in GTS4. You really need to be right at the 9.0 minimum weight/whp ratio. I've seen 2 street GT3's dyno as low as 325 with oem exhausts. That would put you at 2925 lbs. on slicks, 2763 on R-compounds. Those are makeable weights and the best fit for your car in NASA.
A cup would be anemic in ST2 even on R-compounds. Figure 350 whp X 9.25 (8.7 +.4 +.15) = 3239lbs.
Your street GT3 on R-compounds at 325whp could work figuring 325 whp X 8.85 (8.7 + .15 weight) = 2876 lbs. but you'd be fighting with 385 whp Corvettes and me.
My $.02 is that GTS4 is where you'd be most competitive.....
1). 03'-05' cup motors are identical. I've never seen one dyno under 352 and that was a fresh Motorsports rebuild. Most are 355-365 whp on a Dynojet (required for NASA).
2). With me at 160lb. inc. gear my 03' cup weighed roughly 2775....
3). Never seen a restrictor on a 6-cup but it certainly would work and keep your torque up too. Good idea if necessary to make class.
4). GA spec cars are a hard sells as they aren't GTC3 legal. Additonally, there usually beat-to-crap from years of hard GA racing. If you coudl somehow find one that was retubbed and lightly driven since then it would be a good bet. The ones I've seen have been ridden hard and put away wet, just like my x-wife
....Converting your street GT3:
They're great cars but need to be considerably lightened to run competitively in GTS4. You really need to be right at the 9.0 minimum weight/whp ratio. I've seen 2 street GT3's dyno as low as 325 with oem exhausts. That would put you at 2925 lbs. on slicks, 2763 on R-compounds. Those are makeable weights and the best fit for your car in NASA.
A cup would be anemic in ST2 even on R-compounds. Figure 350 whp X 9.25 (8.7 +.4 +.15) = 3239lbs.
Your street GT3 on R-compounds at 325whp could work figuring 325 whp X 8.85 (8.7 + .15 weight) = 2876 lbs. but you'd be fighting with 385 whp Corvettes and me.
My $.02 is that GTS4 is where you'd be most competitive.....
Last edited by jrgordonsenior; 05-07-2011 at 12:48 PM.
05-07-2011, 01:53 PM
#5
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Thread Starter
Hmm, so I guess a Cup may not work for ST2. At 3200 pounds that car is more than handicapped. That would probably explain why I dont really see cup cars in GTS4 much, mostly in 5.
Scott - I've been thinking about it and believe me your car is still very much in the mix!!
Scott - I've been thinking about it and believe me your car is still very much in the mix!!
05-07-2011, 02:38 PM
#6
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The other consideration is the primary reason to have a cup and what gives it value is the "cup" configuration; keeping the car in series race trim so it can be raced in cup series, sealed motor, factory gearbox, bodywok, suspension etc... Those with lots of mods or grand am spec are harder to fit in the series and can have additional costs to setup for a different org. NASA rules are built around "mutts" so you have no real benefit with a cup, both from a cost and class perspective a koni car is a great value. Careful on the prepped cars with fuel cells they are often timed out, NASA enforces the dates on them and factory cells aren't cheap to refit....
05-07-2011, 07:57 PM
#7
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Thread Starter
Thank you Mr Richard - that was my thought as well. Most would like a Cup just for that - being a Cup to run with other similar cars.
Well, I think that answers my questions. I do agree, something like an older Koni car or just sticking to what I have might be the better way to go.
Well, I think that answers my questions. I do agree, something like an older Koni car or just sticking to what I have might be the better way to go.
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05-09-2011, 02:31 PM
#8
I run an '03 Cup in NASA. It's an ST-1 car, though you are correct, you can't get to the minimum competition weight very easily or inexpensively. From the quick analysis we have done you would have to CF almost every body panel to get close.
I also run a stock cup so I can run PCA and Pirelli Drivers Cup, plus a stock Cup holds it value better than a modified one, or one built to Cup specs.
Ricky
I also run a stock cup so I can run PCA and Pirelli Drivers Cup, plus a stock Cup holds it value better than a modified one, or one built to Cup specs.
Ricky
05-09-2011, 03:40 PM
#9
I run a lot with NASA but have not run a cup with them before...
However, I will say that I think a well driven late 996 cup would be very competitive in GTS5. Alternatively run on R-compounds instead of slicks (I saw hoosier is now making a tall sidewall R6 that should work well on the rear of a cup) and use a little bit of a restrictor to get down to 325 rwhp and you would be right at the top of GTS4. Keep the rest of the car stock and it will hold it's resale. Everyone will call you a cheater in GTS4 though ;-)
PS: Beware of cheap cups. There are definitely some deals to be had, but maintenance bills can add up fast if you are not doing your own work and don't have good sources for parts. A pro raced cup that's been used up could easily need gearbox, motor, halfshafts, wheel bearings, suspension bearings/bushings, shocks rebuilt, new fuel cell - not to mention potential tub damage. This stuff can quickly make that $45k cup an $85-100k cup depending on who you have do the work.
Now I personally would go fro a cup over converting a street car. It just makes WAY more sense financially and will always have much better resale!
However, I will say that I think a well driven late 996 cup would be very competitive in GTS5. Alternatively run on R-compounds instead of slicks (I saw hoosier is now making a tall sidewall R6 that should work well on the rear of a cup) and use a little bit of a restrictor to get down to 325 rwhp and you would be right at the top of GTS4. Keep the rest of the car stock and it will hold it's resale. Everyone will call you a cheater in GTS4 though ;-)
PS: Beware of cheap cups. There are definitely some deals to be had, but maintenance bills can add up fast if you are not doing your own work and don't have good sources for parts. A pro raced cup that's been used up could easily need gearbox, motor, halfshafts, wheel bearings, suspension bearings/bushings, shocks rebuilt, new fuel cell - not to mention potential tub damage. This stuff can quickly make that $45k cup an $85-100k cup depending on who you have do the work.
Now I personally would go fro a cup over converting a street car. It just makes WAY more sense financially and will always have much better resale!
05-09-2011, 05:35 PM
#10
Burning Brakes
I run a lot with NASA but have not run a cup with them before...
However, I will say that I think a well driven late 996 cup would be very competitive in GTS5. Alternatively run on R-compounds instead of slicks (I saw hoosier is now making a tall sidewall R6 that should work well on the rear of a cup) and use a little bit of a restrictor to get down to 325 rwhp and you would be right at the top of GTS4. Keep the rest of the car stock and it will hold it's resale. Everyone will call you a cheater in GTS4 though ;-)
PS: Beware of cheap cups. There are definitely some deals to be had, but maintenance bills can add up fast if you are not doing your own work and don't have good sources for parts. A pro raced cup that's been used up could easily need gearbox, motor, halfshafts, wheel bearings, suspension bearings/bushings, shocks rebuilt, new fuel cell - not to mention potential tub damage. This stuff can quickly make that $45k cup an $85-100k cup depending on who you have do the work.
Now I personally would go fro a cup over converting a street car. It just makes WAY more sense financially and will always have much better resale!
However, I will say that I think a well driven late 996 cup would be very competitive in GTS5. Alternatively run on R-compounds instead of slicks (I saw hoosier is now making a tall sidewall R6 that should work well on the rear of a cup) and use a little bit of a restrictor to get down to 325 rwhp and you would be right at the top of GTS4. Keep the rest of the car stock and it will hold it's resale. Everyone will call you a cheater in GTS4 though ;-)
PS: Beware of cheap cups. There are definitely some deals to be had, but maintenance bills can add up fast if you are not doing your own work and don't have good sources for parts. A pro raced cup that's been used up could easily need gearbox, motor, halfshafts, wheel bearings, suspension bearings/bushings, shocks rebuilt, new fuel cell - not to mention potential tub damage. This stuff can quickly make that $45k cup an $85-100k cup depending on who you have do the work.
Now I personally would go fro a cup over converting a street car. It just makes WAY more sense financially and will always have much better resale!
05-09-2011, 08:03 PM
#11
Pro
Thread Starter
Thanks guys!
GTS4 is a pretty good class in our region we can get anywhere from 3-7 cars and ST2 is similar. So the beauty here would the ability to crossover for contingency and better racing. I think getting a Cup to be in ST2 will be nearly impossible or it won't be competitive. GTS5 seldom gets more than 1-2 cars. ST1 is good, but I'd be up against a guy in a world challenge C6 car, so it's pretty damn quick.
I've been looking at Koni cars, but I do fear the years of "pro" racing. For example TRG is selling there 997 Koni car for 55K.
GTS4 is a pretty good class in our region we can get anywhere from 3-7 cars and ST2 is similar. So the beauty here would the ability to crossover for contingency and better racing. I think getting a Cup to be in ST2 will be nearly impossible or it won't be competitive. GTS5 seldom gets more than 1-2 cars. ST1 is good, but I'd be up against a guy in a world challenge C6 car, so it's pretty damn quick.
I've been looking at Koni cars, but I do fear the years of "pro" racing. For example TRG is selling there 997 Koni car for 55K.
05-11-2011, 06:20 PM
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Urkbmw,
You should consider the 996 GT3 race car in the classifieds for NASA competition.
It would be a very strong car in either GTS3 with weight added or GTS4 as it stands.
Car ran 1:25's and 1:33's at Willow and Laguna respectively and on used Yoko slicks.
I can send you more info if you are interested.
James@gmgracing.com
You should consider the 996 GT3 race car in the classifieds for NASA competition.
It would be a very strong car in either GTS3 with weight added or GTS4 as it stands.
Car ran 1:25's and 1:33's at Willow and Laguna respectively and on used Yoko slicks.
I can send you more info if you are interested.
James@gmgracing.com
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05-11-2011, 09:05 PM
#13
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Urkbmw,
You should consider the 996 GT3 race car in the classifieds for NASA competition.
It would be a very strong car in either GTS3 with weight added or GTS4 as it stands.
Car ran 1:25's and 1:33's at Willow and Laguna respectively and on used Yoko slicks.
I can send you more info if you are interested.
James@gmgracing.com
You should consider the 996 GT3 race car in the classifieds for NASA competition.
It would be a very strong car in either GTS3 with weight added or GTS4 as it stands.
Car ran 1:25's and 1:33's at Willow and Laguna respectively and on used Yoko slicks.
I can send you more info if you are interested.
James@gmgracing.com
05-11-2011, 09:59 PM
#14
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Thread Starter
James - sent you an email.
I found 2 in classifieds - one fully converted to Cup at Fall Line and another for sale in Portland. Not sure if it's one of these two or something different.
I found 2 in classifieds - one fully converted to Cup at Fall Line and another for sale in Portland. Not sure if it's one of these two or something different.