mungojerie

I know. That PPI readout I posted came from the Porsche service center, 10 days after purchase. Not from the independent seller. I don't know what codes, if any, they were aware of when selling me the car, or when I took it back to them.

Kirill

I see.
I was thinking it is from PPI - Pre Purchase Inspection - the inspection that was done by second European Dealer

mungojerie

Sorry about the confusion, I saw you called it a PPI but assumed that meant something else in the context of a diagnostic/codes report. My mistake for calling it PPI.

So, as far as I know, neither European dealer had misfire codes prior to purchase. But I don't know if either checked. I know the seller I bought it from does *not* have a Porsche-specific diagnostic computer, they rely on a friendly mechanic nearby for that.

deilenberger

I think all the discussion on when/why/who is nice - but immaterial now. It's time to lawyer up. I'm not a huge fan of this - but if the dealer is claiming they sold you a flawless vehicle and it wasn't - let the lawyer sort it out with the seller. You talking to them is getting nowhere, and the resolution you want, no matter how it happened/when it happened/etc - is a refund on the vehicle or a new engine. That's for the lawyer to pursue. We can beat on our keyboards endlessly - but without any action on your part - the situation remains as it is. You have a newly bought broken car. You want one that runs properly. You paid for one that runs properly. We can't see your sales order - but chances are the two little words "as-is" are hidden in there somewhere - probably on the back in 4 point type in light gray print on a pink background. That's what the lawyer has to fight - and they are about the only chance you have of getting this made right.

DISCLAIMER: I am NOT an attorney, nor do I want to be one, or play one on TV, I have slept in a Holiday Inn Express a few times and probably will again. Any advice I give you may be the results of an addled mind (I'm the same age as our President..) so they should be ignored. I'm telling you what I would do, I'm not telling you what you should do no matter what it sounds like. We all do feel sorry that you're going through this - but without action on your part..

mungojerie

Much appreciated (and funny). Really appreciate the time and thought from everyone.

Yep, if legal action is necessary and seems the way to go, I'll do it. Trying to understand it the seller was reasonable or not, and get to the bottom of this. It's helpful to hear you think this is legitimately a preventable issue. Sure feels like it to me.

Enjoy the Holiday Inn!

oldskewel

Before you spend any time+$$ on a lawyer, you should definitely read and try to understand the contract/bill of sale.

And then for whatever state you are in (and ignore every other state as being irrelevant), just look up (on the googletubes) the laws covering car sales. Your situation is certainly not rare. Laws are in place to clearly address this sort of thing, often siding with simplicity (e.g., caveat emptor, end of story) rather than complicated fairness which would mostly have the net effect of supporting the lawyer's union.

If after understanding the law, it ends up being a gray area, that's when a lawyer would make sense. But this may not be that case. If you can't do this simple research yourself, then yes, a lawyer can answer those questions for you. But if you can do a little legal research yourself you might find that there is no gray area here.

BTW, I'm not a lawyer either, am probably not in your state, and all of the above could be nonsense.

v10rick

Unfortunately there is no way to know if or what codes may have been erased by the sellers mechanic.

You mentioned an engine ticking noise, which was a warning flag.

Relied on an independent shop for the ppi who dropped the ball.

Then drove to a P dealer with a flashing check engine light.

A cluster of events which makes it difficult to assign fault to one party.

Lawyer fees could equal the cost of a replacement engine.

Good luck with this.

Kirill

So I think it boils down to this - you didn't break the engine, car dealer sold you the car that was unfit to be driven. Dealer claims he sold the car "AS-IS" and you out of luck, your lawyer says that dealer misrepresented the car and should've disclosed in writing that the car is in need of repair (not just given you a picture of old plugs)
Where it all ends up - you will find out after several months and $$$$ in legal fees.
My friend was in similar situation and dealer ended up buying back his car and paying his legal fees. But that was in IL - and every state is different.

mungojerie

Latest news. Seller is researching replacement engines and offering to sell it to me at cost, or even a bit below. Seller is also saying it is definitely a post-purchase issue in their view, and that "driving it with the active misfire (flashing check engine light) at 50 mph on the highway for 7 miles could have absolutely melted that piston."

Which would mean a Porsche dealer was wrong in telling me I should be OK to drive to them. Could that drive melt a healthy piston in a healthy cylinder?

Kirill

Why there was a misfire to begin with? The seller changed the plugs - did they break the engine by doing the work on plugs? Actually, the answer is no - it was broken before the seller got it. But if you have a misfire and big oil consumption - it needed the new engine anyway melted piston or not.

The wisdom on Russian cayenne forums is to sleeve the engine in case of scored cylinders - that creates an engine that will last a long time. But there are people who are experienced in the process - I don't think that many cayennes in US\Canada had engine sleeves installed. Cost is about 10k$
Here is a video on process:

mungojerie

I appreciate that. But I'm unclear that I have a strong enough leg to stand on to get this resolved. Should they really have caught this? How? Or is this a bad luck situation that falls within what's reasonable and legal, and I just have to pay for it?

Thanks again for the responses.

Kirill

That is what lawyers are for - can go either way. They changed the plugs - plug is covered in burnt oil, you had to add oil after 180 miles, need to see carfax and if the seller had it for 200 miles - they had to do the same - so that means they knew about oil consumption and didn't disclose it to you.

Seller will say - we had no way of knowing and that even your PPI didn't catch it. You say - yes because you tried to cover it up by changing plugs and (i can only guess - changing\adding oil) And you trying to make a case that because they sold you a vehicle with hidden undisclosed major mechanical issue that makes this product "not fit for purpose" and seller actively tried to cover it up and that makes you entitled to get your money back.
Really complex mess - you need another forum for that - try asking your question here https://www.avvo.com/ask-a-lawyer - get some opinions from actual lawyers.

prosled8

OK, first realize that the selling dealer is going to say ANYTHING to avoid picking up the tab on this car. Know that these can be unscrupulous people on a good day, buckle up when you back them into a corner.

FACT You did not melt a piston by driving with a light misfire.

The piston isn't melted from detonation which would be easy to discern and photograph for court. It is from the cylinder wall coating failing and the associated friction. Like I said, a picture of the failed piston will likely defeat their claim pretty easily. They are grabbing at straws because this isn't going to be cheap. Detonation CAN ruin pistons but in your case you had a misfire from a fouled plug, not a hot, lean, piston melting condition.

They are trying to take advantage of the fact that YOU don't really know. We are all telling you that this failure occurred well before the car was sold to you. I put 12,000 miles on a turbo with a tick, never even started to burn oil. Once they do it does go downhill fast but still a few thousand miles before the consumption gets really bad. All this time it will be perfectly drivable with very little hint of the impending failure. THIS is when it was sold to you, on the tail end of a slow death.

I would have a nice vinyl sign made up. It would list the dealer, the problem and the **** off attitude they have given you. I would park it in front of their dealership with a big inflatable lemon on the roof. I would also be talking to an attorney and letting him give you advice on your situation. Show him/her this thread. Good Luck

prosled8

Should they have known, or did they know? Well, you were shopping for a used Cayenne, a vehicle you claim to have researched on this forum before buying. Good chance you knew more than they did since they are in the business to move them, not study up on them. If they drove it, had an issue and replaced then plugs, one or two being suspect plus the tick... Did you see the plugs before you signed papers or were those from the Porsche dealer later? If you looked at oily plugs and a car with a misfire on the test drive and still went ahead... Might be on you.

I think they knew something was up. I bet they got it really cheap at auction. They knew it had issue due to the repairs they had to pay to have done on it. I personally would be making them take it back, I think they should once you demonstrate the problem was pre-existing. I think that is the risk you take when you endeavor to sell premium used cars, especially high maint European ones. They sold you a car with a bad engine, end of story.

prosled8

Sorry about the post run... maybe I have had enough coffee!

I would ask the selling dealer how they would handle this if you could prove the condition existed before you bought the car? You CAN prove this. Oily plug pics, bore scope pics, and a couple letters from mechanics or service writers. This is not an uncommon problem unfortunately.