prosled8

I intend this respectfully, you are absolutely NUTS to be even considering spending another cent on this car much less thousands. The car needs to go back, period, end of story. They sold you their problem and that is NOT your problem, in no way shape or form. You are crazy to bail them out and further screw yourself by trying to repair and keep that car. Let it go to the salvage yard, let the dealer figure out what to do with the loss. I would not for one second have accepted the "deal" you appear to be happy with. You are a true glutton for punishment if you follow through on your current course. That car will continue to cost you money, you WILL regret keeping it.

nodoors

@prosled8, if he is in an 'As is' state there is no return policy. He should have done his homework and been 'ware. Right?

prosled8

AS-IS goes completely out the door when they misrepresent the vehicle, intentionally or not. Like I mentioned long ago in this crazy thread, if it were me it would be parked in front of their dealership in a lemon suit until this was resolved. Giving them more money for the bad car they sold you is INSANE! I have no idea what posses people to take responsibility like this on themselves...

mungojerie

I'm doing this just because of uncertainty that I'll accomplish anything with your strategy (which I like ), and the fact that I *am* getting a solid reduction in the labor to fix it. If they were giving nothing, I'd be taking action now. They're giving me something, so I'm taking that and then going from there. Parking in front and calling them a Lemon Seller is an all-or-nothing strategy.

Agree that AS-IS doesn't apply if they misrepresented, intentionally or not. The lawyer I spoke to thinks I have a stronger case than they would, but it's a case, not a guarantee. Meaning time, money, and stress. I'm more willing to deal with that stress once I've got a car back. Risk is that another, used engine will be its own problem. I'm not comfortable with the situation, it just seems the lesser of the evils. I guess I'm in a "keep friends close, enemies closer" situation, and I'm not entirely sure which camp they fall in to.

oldskewel

I've never actually been in a legal case, but I've read plenty of contracts. They ALL seem to include words to the effect that you should not rely on anything at all that the sales guy told you ... that the whole deal is spelled out in this contract ... and here's the deal ... it is AS-IS. They don't go as far as to say that you should assume the sales guy was lying about everything, but it is almost implied that you'd be wise to make that assumption.

I of course don't know what is in the OP's contract, or the details on laws in that state. But as a general question for myself, since it sounds like you know about this stuff ... would wording like that in a contract overcome any "misrepresentation" unless it is exceedingly fraudulent (like selling a car that is stolen or does not exist)?

Tony Quart

Won't you try to ask whether it could be claimed under the Lemon Law? I read at https://www.lemberglaw.com/lemon-law-lawyers-attorneys/ that in some states, used vehicles are covered by Used Car Lemon Laws. I don't know for sure, but it worth a try, right? Hope this helps.

prosled8

The fact is, that without fudging the numbers in a big way, the seller offered a car for sale that was a total loss in less than 10 days after the sale. I would take that to court in a heartbeat. In all likelihood it would never make it to the judge, they would settle it. They do not want to take the chance either, mostly because they know they will lose. Do not be their patsy, that is exactly how they view the OP at this time. I know they are not telling him that but they are running scared hoping he doesn't figure this out.

They sold a car with a fried engine, simple as that. Not holding them accountable this time means they will do it again. Hire the lawyer, put them on notice that this car is their problem. I just do not see the justification for sucking this up, especially since the car will continue to be a problem. Park it out there with the lemon, best thing you could do by a long shot right now.

marky522

Ok, i started reading all of the responses to your thread but saw so much misinformation I decided just to reply.

First of all- when you had the flashing CEL South point should NOT have told you to drive it- flashing CEL means Catalyst damage can occur and is basically telling you that you have at least one cylinder that has a Dead mis-fire. Secondly, just looking at your spark plugs i can tell you from experience that you most likely have at least 1 scored cylinder, and it didnt just start happening, the first generation DFI engines would occasionally score a cylinder and the failure would go right along with what you experienced, but earlier symptoms would have been increased oil consumption. Scored cylinders do NOT always cause an engine noise/tick in these situations. I have seen a failed DFI injector hang open and destroy an engine, but never one cause a lean enough condition to melt a piston. Unfortunately i see situations like this - i had one a few months ago i quoted an engine for customer declines and 3 days later same Cayenne is back for CEL diag but now for Carmax.

Good luck- sorry your Cayenne experience is less than great so far.

Mark

mungojerie

Thanks a ton, Mark. I'll investigate the bad engine as soon as I can and see if it was scored. I was seeing increased oil consumption.

So is it your take that the initial misfire could've been caused because of scored cylinders? Meaning, while driving may have made it worse, the engine was already going to be shot from the get-to?

I've purchased a used replacement engine (from a car that was always in Florida, so hopefully not scored). Still waiting on getting it put in my Cayenne. Once I have access to the old engine, I'm guessing that borescope photos of the cylinders would tell me if there was scoring?

mungojerie

Or, are you saying, that driving on it might have caused damage outside of the engine?

nodoors

He is agreeing with all of us that you bought a Cayenne with scored cylinders and the increased oil consumption and spark plug getting fouled so quickly was the evidence. I don't see where anyone here on the board provided misinformation. Perhaps he was referring to what the dealer told you. You should never drive a vehicle with a flashing check engine light.

RAudi Driver

Oh I can almost guarantee that the dealer knew about the issue. That's why they changed the spark plugs. To prolong the inevitable, the misfires. Try to find the previous owner, look on Rennlist and 6 speed or see if you can do a vin or record search.

It's too bad that you got taken. I'd fight to get whole.

BrianC72gt

If you have the car fax, call the shops that are listed as having serviced the vehicle before. I just bought an 04 CTT traded in at an AutoNation Honda dealer. I visited the local Porsche dealership that serviced it for the last few years and they gave me a phonebook sized pile of printouts with all of the work performed. A phone call to a distant dealership that serviced the car years earlier netted no printed records - citing privacy - but did yield a 30 minute chat with their service manager who reviewed all of the work performed. Even an independent shop that did some minor work was reasonably helpful.

You might get lucky and find that someone recently serviced the vehicle and noted the problem on 8. I couldn't make out from your photo if 8 was melted or scored or anything really. Are we sure that's the problem? Also, your misfires on 1 & 5 could very well be coils on the fritz. They tend to go out in batches. Oil in 8 could be a blown head gasket from overheating before you bought it and nothing more. It could be a PCV or Oil Separator stuck wide open allowing excess oil to vent into the intake manifold.

If they haven't done so already, the sellers, Frick & Frack, should do a compression/leakdown test, check for oil in the intake, check the coils and then work back form there. If compression is bad news, pull the head on the bank with cylinder 8 and really see if the piston is fried or a valve is hung up or, as suspected, the cylinder is scored. There is no harm in doing so if the engine is toast, but you might find it is just a blown head gasket, and that all you need is a refreshed cylinder head and new head gasket. I'm not saying it is likely, but I wouldn't assume 100% that all of the misfires are related. At the very least, move that new coil off of 8 where it is doing no good at all and put it on 5. If 5 stops recording misfires, that's something. Then pull the head on the bank with cylinder 8, and check the piston, injector and cylinder bore to see what really happened. The first step is to remove the intake manifold. At that point they might find that the intake valves are loaded with carbon and 8 isn't closing completely. That would explain misfires and wet plugs.

Ultimately, the sellers should have known from the state of the old plugs that there was a problem, if not the full extent of the problem. Their notion that a stuck fuel injector caused a meltdown is utter bovine excrement. Can't happen. Running lean can melt things. Running rich with a stuck injector doesn't. The extra fuel doesn't burn, there isn't enough oxygen to allow it to burn. Instead, it COOLS that cylinder. A stuck injector would also pump gas into the engine oil causing the oil level to rise - diluted with fuel. Over a very long time a stuck injector could cause cylinder wear by continually washing the oil from the cylinder wall, but again, the oil level would rise, smell like fuel and be diluted. None of that jives with the symptoms you observed.

I think these guys got stuck with a car that had some issues, maybe they didn't want to know the full extent of those issues, and they hoped they could pass it off to you without incident. If you got a few months out of it, they would be in the clear. Someone competent and honest should perform some basic diagnostic work on the seller's dime. It's a few hours of diagnosis that could save you all a ton of grief. Not likely, but possible.

Tip of the hat for keeping your cool.

Good luck,

Brian C.

Porscheforever

They found a hole in a ground, covered it with sheet of wood, made you stood on the sheet of wood, the wood lasted 10 days with a crackling warning before you fell in it. And they told you they didn’t know there’s a hole & it may had happened because of your weight. And they tried to convince you it was your fault & tried to sell you a dirt at cost for filling the hole.

Their scheme worked perfectly since they knew you have the money.

What a sleazy b** with devil’s tongue, the seller & the dealer are. Just team up with a lawyer & go with your principle. I wouldn’t give them any cents.

Why a person must endure this much injustice. For crying out loud!!

PF

Pbacon

I have had a couple of similar experiences. In 2005, I bought a 993 C2S from a "specialty shop" in the midwest. I had the local Porsche dealer do a PPI. When I got the car home and went for local inspection, the CEL code in the OBD was on, but the light was off. The PO had bent the contact so the bulb would not illuminate. The PO or the seller had reset the code in OBD and they don't come of for a few hundred miles. I put enough miles for the code to come back on before I got inspected. I went back to the dealer for help and they left me hanging. The seller would not do anything either, saying it was "as is". I became the poster child for the clogged secondary air by-pass in these cars. I should have noticed the CEL light did not illuminate when the key was turned on. So My BAD. You can read about the posting at the time. The root cause has been linked back to accelerated wear on low quality valve guides but Porsche has not published anything on it. I paid about $5K to rebuild the heads with new valve guides so the engine would pass emissions inspection. So even if you do a PPI, don't expect the dealer to be responsible for problems later because they do not offer a warranty or guarantee on inspections unless they are selling the car. It is still buyer beware. So my only recourse is hoping the PO of the car and the owner of the specialty shop have frequent breakdowns in 5 o'clock traffic.

More recently I bought a 2011 Audi A4 from Flow BMW in Winston Salem. They took the car for as a trade in. It looked and drove great and they did their own PPI. This car is known for having ring problems in some of the engines. I paid extra for the 12 month power train warranty and made sure they would help with a claim if something came up. I changed the oil when I got the car home. I found the oil to be really dirty and Flow gave me credit for a new oil change because we both thought maybe the oil change records were somehow off. Sure enough, within 200 miles the car consumed 3 quarts of oil and the oil was dirty again. So, the PO knew very well the car had an oil consumption problem and dumped it for a trade in. Flow BMW ended up passing me over to Flow Audi in Greensboro who worked the insurance company to get me a new motor. A couple of weeks and my $500 deductible later, I had a new installed motor with a 12 month warranty. Flow got snookered by the PO on the trade in but they supported me. Great folks. Next time I need a car, they will get my call.

So lesson learned, There are people that try to pass the trash. The dealers often try their best but miss things too. Get the PPI AND get at least the powertrain warranty. Anything hidden by the PO should show up in the first few months. I also suggest talking about the possibility with the sales manager before you buy the car and get them to agree on the course of action should something bad happen. If you are buying from an individual, I don't know how to avoid this possibility unless you know them from the club.