ENGINES?? 2.7's 3.0's etc..........
01-20-2003, 07:30 PM
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ENGINES?? 2.7's 3.0's etc..........
Ok,
It's one of those things. I'm like alot of other guys who grew up driving American Muscle cars. Though way back in 1971 I wanted a 911. I've only had to wait 31 yrs and 5 children to get one.
I bought a '69 with a '73 2.4 block, with '75-76 components building a 2.7. Now this was in the car when I bought it back in Aug. It runs ok, actually fun.But like other's, I want to know about upgrading to a bigger engine, or is this worth building on?
I'm afraid I'd put the same money into this current motor, that could of been invested into something bigger/better??
I had a guy price a 3.3 turbo with 3000 miles on it.It has been upgraded in the piston department to around 345HP. He's asking me $5000. for this engine.
Now the other situation.I let my wife drive the '69 911. She then went out and bought a 78 911SC. 30 minutes later she just HAD to have this other '69 red project car, less engine and transmission. So in 4 months we went from no 911's to 3.
I thought if I were to buy the 3.3 eng. that I could use the 2.7 in the Project car.
I guess my question is? Several ????:
In order to have something above stock. What engines are going to be the choice.I noticed alot of people going up to the 3.6. Is that the final quest?? I have the Book. "PORSCHE 911, ENGINE HISTORY AND DEVELOPMENT", along with Bruce Anderson's book, and am amazed at the specs on some of the older smaller motors. 2.4 thru 3.4. To attain this, is the cost too prohibited?? I'm not using it as a daily driver. But would like to use one of them as a canidate for a track car at some point.
Sorry to be so long. There is no one out here in "smallville, Missouri" to talk with.All we have here is the kids in their Honda's with flares and spoilers everywhere they can stick them.And oh yes, the mustang shopping carts, with their 3 feet tall tails? SMIRK.
Thanks for your ears. Any input is greatly appreciated!!
Gary C.
'69 911 Black
'69 911 Red (Wife's car)
'78 911SC (Wife's other car-ha!)
It's one of those things. I'm like alot of other guys who grew up driving American Muscle cars. Though way back in 1971 I wanted a 911. I've only had to wait 31 yrs and 5 children to get one.
I bought a '69 with a '73 2.4 block, with '75-76 components building a 2.7. Now this was in the car when I bought it back in Aug. It runs ok, actually fun.But like other's, I want to know about upgrading to a bigger engine, or is this worth building on?
I'm afraid I'd put the same money into this current motor, that could of been invested into something bigger/better??
I had a guy price a 3.3 turbo with 3000 miles on it.It has been upgraded in the piston department to around 345HP. He's asking me $5000. for this engine.
Now the other situation.I let my wife drive the '69 911. She then went out and bought a 78 911SC. 30 minutes later she just HAD to have this other '69 red project car, less engine and transmission. So in 4 months we went from no 911's to 3.
I thought if I were to buy the 3.3 eng. that I could use the 2.7 in the Project car.
I guess my question is? Several ????:
In order to have something above stock. What engines are going to be the choice.I noticed alot of people going up to the 3.6. Is that the final quest?? I have the Book. "PORSCHE 911, ENGINE HISTORY AND DEVELOPMENT", along with Bruce Anderson's book, and am amazed at the specs on some of the older smaller motors. 2.4 thru 3.4. To attain this, is the cost too prohibited?? I'm not using it as a daily driver. But would like to use one of them as a canidate for a track car at some point.
Sorry to be so long. There is no one out here in "smallville, Missouri" to talk with.All we have here is the kids in their Honda's with flares and spoilers everywhere they can stick them.And oh yes, the mustang shopping carts, with their 3 feet tall tails? SMIRK.
Thanks for your ears. Any input is greatly appreciated!!
Gary C.
'69 911 Black
'69 911 Red (Wife's car)
'78 911SC (Wife's other car-ha!)
01-20-2003, 08:34 PM
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your 2.4 built up, in a light car( the '69s) could be loads of fun. The 2.7 in the light car could be even more fun. It all depends on your budget, I have a 200+hp 2.2 its a race motor and isnt suited for street driving.
Decide what you want outof the cars and build the appropriate engine. HWne you have decided what to build, this and other forums will be ore than helpful
Decide what you want outof the cars and build the appropriate engine. HWne you have decided what to build, this and other forums will be ore than helpful
01-20-2003, 09:13 PM
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Tim,
Thanks for the quick response.
One thing I don't want to have happen is to get blown off the highway, by one of the New 270HP VW's. I guess it's a feeling that Porsche has a reputation and to be shut down.
My '69 has the RSR front and rear bumpers, tail, steel turbo flares.So I don't know how light it is.
Any comments on the 2.7's?? A 2.7 (1975 2.7S)are these a problem with the cases as well?
Thanks!
Gary C.
Thanks for the quick response.
One thing I don't want to have happen is to get blown off the highway, by one of the New 270HP VW's. I guess it's a feeling that Porsche has a reputation and to be shut down.
My '69 has the RSR front and rear bumpers, tail, steel turbo flares.So I don't know how light it is.
Any comments on the 2.7's?? A 2.7 (1975 2.7S)are these a problem with the cases as well?
Thanks!
Gary C.
01-26-2003, 09:34 AM
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The turbo will be the most HP for the money for sure. It will cost you at least $5k in parts and machine work to build a high performance 2.2-2.7. The most streetable HP you will get is 210 from a 2.7. It will cost you a few hundred dollars in tools to be able to build one yourself or $3-5k to have a good shop do it.
The 2.7 mag case is fine for a street motor if it is line bored and timecerts are installed. Add about $1000.
If you really want to build one then that is great. If you are looking for the most bang for the buck then but in a later model bigger motor. The more you spend the faster you will go.
3.0 $3500-$5000, 3.2 $5000-6500, early 3.6 6500-7500, 993 3.6 $8-10K. The turbos 3.0 & 3.2 motors are an easy swap with parts that are usually included with the motors. The 3.6's get trickier and you will spend some money on conversion parts.
The 2.7 mag case is fine for a street motor if it is line bored and timecerts are installed. Add about $1000.
If you really want to build one then that is great. If you are looking for the most bang for the buck then but in a later model bigger motor. The more you spend the faster you will go.
3.0 $3500-$5000, 3.2 $5000-6500, early 3.6 6500-7500, 993 3.6 $8-10K. The turbos 3.0 & 3.2 motors are an easy swap with parts that are usually included with the motors. The 3.6's get trickier and you will spend some money on conversion parts.
01-26-2003, 03:20 PM
#5
The limiting factor in the 69 will be first the 901 transmission, its not really built for the torque of the bigger engines, even a stock early 915 is stressed by a 3.6. Then other things like brakes wheels suspension etc. will need to be updated.
To really do it right all of those items will need to be addressed and they will come to a tidy sum.
I would suggest a somewhat more modern chassis say 84-86 Carrera as a starting point, you may not even want to go further, but if you do most of the basics are there.
There is one exception to the above suggestion. If emissions inspections are in the cards then the early chassis say 72-73 are desireable, but will still need a ton of work.
To really do it right all of those items will need to be addressed and they will come to a tidy sum.
I would suggest a somewhat more modern chassis say 84-86 Carrera as a starting point, you may not even want to go further, but if you do most of the basics are there.
There is one exception to the above suggestion. If emissions inspections are in the cards then the early chassis say 72-73 are desireable, but will still need a ton of work.
01-26-2003, 04:44 PM
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In the 69 you intend on using as a Track car I would build a nice killer 2.8 from a 2.7 7R case, obviously it will have to be timecerted but as this is a track car I would think you will be doing everything "right". To get the most bang for the dollar I would have Dave Brown at Carolina Speedwerks in NC do the heads and use the piston/cam package he recommends, be very specific as to what you are doing with the car. definitely make thorough use of the advanced coatings available. We are currently running 2.0 litre motors in vintage racing at 13 to 1 compression- something you couldnt do a few years ago due to thermal efficiency. Technology has come a long ways. Also I am not a fan of carburetors, so would highly suggest using a programmable efi if your budget allows it.I agree with the earlier statement about changing the gearbox over to a 915, or at least having your 901 gearbox modified for spray bar lubrication
For the street car I would just install a mild 3.0 or maybe a 3.2, along with the 915 box. In an early chassis this will really shine.
For the street car I would just install a mild 3.0 or maybe a 3.2, along with the 915 box. In an early chassis this will really shine.
01-26-2003, 05:09 PM
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Appreciate all the thoughts on this topic. Please continue to ad your experiences.
We don't have emissions test in our County. We have a '69 Project car. That is the one needing the engine.
Thanks!
Gary C.
We don't have emissions test in our County. We have a '69 Project car. That is the one needing the engine.
Thanks!
Gary C.
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01-26-2003, 06:21 PM
#8
Ok 69 it is, Having gone down this road myself some thoughts.
Plan everything out in advance have a minds eye picture of the end result at a minimum, plan around a purpose, track car? what class? what are the class rules? street car? daily driver? sunny day fun? etc.
Many of us have done 3.6 in an early chassis, it is probably the ultimate n/a version, 3.2 will be a close second but will entail almost the same cost and only a little less effort for a lot less bang for the buck.
I have had a '93 964 in my '76 Carrera since '94 it is a very reliable easy to live w/ power plant and the oldest I would consider for such a project, earlier versions of the 964 had some teething problems which were generally taken care of by '92 and '93. A '95 993 is more powerful but also more money '96 up even more so. If I were doing a '96 up the european versions offer many advantages over US versions and should be considered the best for a transplant but again they will also be the most expensive. '93 964s semm to be going in the low $7k range I just paid a tad under $10 for a 97 euro. for my latest project
If a 3.2 or 3.6 is used the trans needs to be changed to a 915, 84-86 being the best, for a 3.6 plan on having it beefed up w/ a cooler spray bar and side reinforcements especially if track use is anticipated.
The suspension will need to be beefed up as will the wheels and tires. To fit decent tires you will need SC/Carrera flares.
If you have S/SC/Carrera brakes they will be ok for the street but not the track.
You will need an efficient front mount oil cooler. Valance mount is the best, fender mounts can be marginal, the more powerful the engine the more marginal.
As you can see the list is quite extensive and I have by no means gone into all of the details. If you follow through you will be delighted w/ the end result, there are several of us here and more at Pelican, more every day. We are universaly delighted w/ our cars
You may want to take a peek at <a href="http://instant-g.com/" target="_blank">Dr Timmins</a> for more info site
Plan everything out in advance have a minds eye picture of the end result at a minimum, plan around a purpose, track car? what class? what are the class rules? street car? daily driver? sunny day fun? etc.
Many of us have done 3.6 in an early chassis, it is probably the ultimate n/a version, 3.2 will be a close second but will entail almost the same cost and only a little less effort for a lot less bang for the buck.
I have had a '93 964 in my '76 Carrera since '94 it is a very reliable easy to live w/ power plant and the oldest I would consider for such a project, earlier versions of the 964 had some teething problems which were generally taken care of by '92 and '93. A '95 993 is more powerful but also more money '96 up even more so. If I were doing a '96 up the european versions offer many advantages over US versions and should be considered the best for a transplant but again they will also be the most expensive. '93 964s semm to be going in the low $7k range I just paid a tad under $10 for a 97 euro. for my latest project
If a 3.2 or 3.6 is used the trans needs to be changed to a 915, 84-86 being the best, for a 3.6 plan on having it beefed up w/ a cooler spray bar and side reinforcements especially if track use is anticipated.
The suspension will need to be beefed up as will the wheels and tires. To fit decent tires you will need SC/Carrera flares.
If you have S/SC/Carrera brakes they will be ok for the street but not the track.
You will need an efficient front mount oil cooler. Valance mount is the best, fender mounts can be marginal, the more powerful the engine the more marginal.
As you can see the list is quite extensive and I have by no means gone into all of the details. If you follow through you will be delighted w/ the end result, there are several of us here and more at Pelican, more every day. We are universaly delighted w/ our cars
You may want to take a peek at <a href="http://instant-g.com/" target="_blank">Dr Timmins</a> for more info site
