Turbo211

I am really sorry that PCNA has been so difficult to deal with on your obvious major issue. It appears that you have not finished your 3 year battle. I applaud your tenacity. It is really foolish of Porsche to deal with a major issue in this fashion. I suspect part of the problem is their potential liability regarding your shoulder issue.

I have been a Porsche owner for most of the last fifty plus years. I currently own a 997.2 Carrera 4S. I did my last PCA DE five years ago and found my reflexes did not allow it to be as much fun as when I was younger. Recently I have been considering a switch from the 997 to a Panamera GTS. However considering your issues with PCNA I have decided not to change yet but when I do it will not be a Porsche product. That is saying a great deal after being a loyal Porsche owner over the years. Porsche has not been the same company since they were taken over by VW. The recent VW emissions issues also help to decide against ever owning another automobile manufactured by a VW subsidiary.

Thanks again for your posts.
Mike

Kevin

It's sad that you have had this type of failure...

You wrote: Following a near death experience of “self steering” on I-20 coming home from Hennessey Porsche.

Can you explain what happened in the event? Did you lose control due to steering input or lack of input? Did the car hit the Armco barrier? air bags deployed?

Where there cracks in the lower cross-member attachment points behind the front frame rail/core support failure? That's where I would be looking. Has anyone removed the suspension and engine to examine the attachment points? Porsche engineer/representative DID offer a good suggestion. He wanted to have the rear bumper support welds examined. If the bonding was failing it would cast doubt into "ALL" possible welds.. The frame would be a total loss.

If you are looking to get "whole" financially, you will most likely have to pay to secure the services of a Law Firm on your nickel. There are Attorneys on this forum, that might offer advice. In the end, Porsche looks like they want to settle on the car reimbursement. BUT that it.. You might need to sue to get a Judgement. The Lemon Law will be added proof. It looks like an uphill battle..

I myself am curious to see if there is any other weld failures on the chassis.

PV=nRT

The incident on I-20 occurred returning home from another futile service visit to a Porsche dealer (Hennessy Porsche that time). I had brought the car to them due to worsening handling problems, difficult steering, brief episodes of the car feeling like it was on ice, decreased gas mileage and excessive tire wire. Tall they did was a fourth alignment in less than 3 weeks and then said the car was perfectly safe. I was charged for the alignment.

The steering initially felt a little tighter again after the alignment but deteriorated again on the way home. The was so unstable I was driving only about 45-50 mph on the interstate. About half way back home, the steering wheel shot left taking the car toward the median barrier from the right lane. I tired to pull the steering wheel back to center to the point of fracturing my upper arm and ripping my shoulder but was unable to move the steering wheel. Then the car went over a rough expansion joint and it changed direction back to the right. By the time it got back to the right side I was able to stop. (The Pan does at least have great brakes). Nothing was hit. Photos of the front of the car's nose clearly show no damage.

It is likely that the lane keep system/ EPS responded to bad data generated by the frame's instability and flex caused by the failing welds. Cars, like the Pan with electric power steering generate more steering force than a person can overpower as I found out. Several recalls have occurred due to "self steering" events in EPS cars. Some due to problems in the basic EPS and some due to malfunctions of lane keep type safety features. Hyundai recalled several hundred thousand cars for EPS issues. A YouTube video posted by a Hyundai owner shows minor "self steering" about 2/3 of the way through the 60 sec video.


Its also possible that frame was so loose by that point that the control arms could move inappropriately in reaction to road imperfections like the expansion joint. You can't image how badly the car drove the last three weeks before the frame totally failed. The last half of the video I posted earlier in this thread shows both older and fresh breaks in the frame welds. It also shows the failure points in the frame just in front of the attachment for the front control arms and the break in the subframe as well.

I'll post an excerpt of part of video since it is fairly long.

Given the total failure of the welds between the frame rails and the bumper assembly flange, I'm not sure what you mean by: Were there cracks in the lower cross-member attachment points behind the front frame rail/core support failure? That's where I would be looking. Can you clarify what/ why you would look at those points?

The forensic engineering report for the car is also in the latter half of the video. Given the causes they list for the weld failures, it is very unlikely that the similar welds in the rear of the vehicle are any better. Porsche also seems to believe the frame is a total loss. Their letter responding to my request for a final repair attempt stated repair was not possible.

Unless NHTSA requires testing and makes the results public, it is unlikely much more will be discovered. Doug House (Porsche) had stated in his testimony that I would be given all test results but Porsche has already sent me an email since then that they consider themselves under no obligation to release any future results to me. That's assumes they actually do buy the car back and they do testing.

The middle part of the video goes over the lawyer question. I have shelled out about $40,000 in nickels so far in expenses and to get the case to its current point. While I welcome any attorneys on this forum to contact me, none I spoke to about this case have had interest. There was insufficient injury- a fatality is so much better- to net a sufficient pay day.

The cost and time required to bring a manufacturing defect case against Porsche are both considerable. There's plenty of easier work out there. Another problem is suing in GA. They have a law that gives the State 75% of any punitive award, killing most lawsuits.

Lawyers look at cases as investments. They want as close to a sure thing as possible, with low cost and with a high return. The image most people have that a car company will fall over themselves to settle something like this is dead wrong. In reality, consumers have very little recourse against manufactures and dealers. That of course is why car manufacturers will produce shoddy pieces of junk like the car Porsche sold me. With shoddy cars, they have a definite higher profit and only a remote chance of ever really being held accountable. Easy choice apparently.

Porsche intentions are only to delay repurchase- and dealing with NHTSA after they do- as long as they possible can. After more than 3 years (and two Porsches) dealing with them, my opinion is there is not a fiber of ethical, moral or customer centric focus anywhere in Porsche Cars North America or Porsche AG. I was at one time one hell of a fan of the company but they beat that admiration right out of me.

Kevin

I understand what you area saying. But there are unanswered questions..

Someone needs to have this car inspected at a Porsche Certified Repair shop. The car needs to be put on a Frame Rack and measured. The rear bumper cover needs to be removed and the rear frame assy needs to be looked at.

If you look at the frame structure, this car has a front cross member, the main job is to provide front structural support for the frame, engine and suspension (mounting). This support structure needs to be looked at and checked for cracks.

You can do a quick search with Google and see front end damage that has been repaired. Porsche has a repair procedure for frontal impacts. If there are more frame cracks due to failed welds>> it is all a moot point, the car would be a total loss.

Another area of concern is the steering system. The cause of the handling issue might be in another system, or subsystem.

Again, my recommendation is to get the car structurally examined, and if no fault is found. Repair the front core support and get the car road worthy. Force Porsche to troubleshoot the handling issue.

Noah Fect

Wow. Did you actually read a single word in this thread?

NoGaBiker

I know, seriously? The whole time I'm reading that post I'm thinking, "Did I miss something major here?" Then when he got to "Get the car structurally examined and if no fault is found..." I literally burst out laughing. I pictured John Candy in Trains Planes Autos trying to return the burned up LeBaron to the rental counter as if nothing was wrong with it.

Kevin

And yes.. But Porsche has requested that the rear frame assy and bumper attachment be looked at. If they are digging in there feet for payment. Spend the monies to remove the rear bumper cover and examine the welds.

The point is, a Porsche certified bodyshop will see the additional damage from failed joints in other areas of the frame..

Edit>> again the intention is to "try" to force Porsche to cut the check for this car. Give them more proof.. I don't think that Porsche wants this car on the road?

The fact that this thread is getting READ and looked at HELPS the OP/Owner..

Dewinator

Wow! On a lighter note, have you seen the back end of a Panamera? Maybe the good looking front end literally couldn't live another day attached to it!

Noah Fect

Dude, the front fell off.

Kevin

I think that this car has 3 seperate issues, stemming from one or two events..

This car was purchased used CPO'd from Jim Ellis. This car was in a previous accident event. What was that event. I have been in this business for over 30 years. I have seen cars totalled coming off the transport truck. I have seen lot boys total vehicles moving the cars from one storage lot to another. Sales staff have taken vehicles home and to recreational events (lets DE this vehicle this weekend). What we do know is that prior to the car being sold, the nose was repaired, and repainted. There WAS and is FRAME RAIL damage (bent) from some event. This damage happened somewhere. It's hard to believe that Porsche built this car with a BENT frame rail. Please note: the bonding and assembly of the aluminum superstructure and frame rails are done with compression rivots. The actual welds are done in few places. The entire frame rail system is not welded. That is why I suggested that the rear weld points get examined (Porsche requested it also).

The engineer/author wrote: the very same accident can result in what is called indirect damage to the frame and body, which appears away from the area of impact.

Someone needs to find out the history of this car prior to the CPO sale. The engineer/author of the Report recommends that: "the frame be inspected using computerized laser measuring systems." He goes on stating how this car can be FIXED.


From the Engineering Report that is attached to this thread. I have provided them as follows.

Conclusion

F. Based on the photograph provided showing strike marks on the driver’s side of the bumper and visual inspection of the vehicle, it is our opinion that damage to the vehicle’s front bumper, while in Jim Ellis Porsche’s control, could have contributed to the failure of the welds. But, just as importantly, the very same accident can result in what is called indirect damage to the frame and body, which appears away from the area of impact. In order to assess the condition of a frame's indirect damage, it is recommended that the frame be inspected using computerized laser measuring systems.

Observations
E. After further investigation the bumper flange components that were welded to the frame rails were done so by a laser welding process [Ref. 1]. In order to salvage the vehicle to the point of drivability the restoration process would be to: remove the engine to expose the rails and remove the rails from the unibody frame. Note that the rails are riveted to the frame by self-piercing rivets and bonded to the frame. Once removed the rails would have to be checked for straightness and dimensional accuracy. If the damaged rails cannot be reinstalled then rails from a salvage yard would have to be used. Salvaged bumper flanges would have to be gas metal arc welded to the rail ends. With the refurbished rails in place the engine would be installed, the bumper assembly would be reattached, the vehicle aligned (using new components), the front-end breaks totally replaced, new wheels and tires mounted and the EPS (Electronic Power Steering) system recalibrated. Finally upon completion of the repairs more than likely the collision shop or dealership would have the vehicle’s owner sign a liability waver stating that the owner accepts full liability in the event of any subsequent damage.

Road Racin

Was it towed out of the environment?

SAN997

Question: given that your car split in two, and rolled down a hill into a ditch while being towed, would this not be covered under a comprehensive insurance policy from either the towing company or from your insurance?

After all, if Porsche's official position from numerous dealer inspections and a CPO is that the car is fine, then "clearly" this is the result of some type of negligence from the towing company or a freak failure of some sort.

Did you try making an insurance claim and get denied?

Preeble

I thought that Porsche would not CPO a car that previously been in an accident? I get that the car was a 'demo' or corporate car (and thus wouldn't be registered), but I would think that the CPO program at least has some standards! This is fairly concerning to me.