allegretto

on the former. be careful there. a 996TT will not blow the doors off a new .2 PDK. and on the track i think you'd better look out!

and yes, the Panamera is a Porsche. George is simply wrong about the car. as he is about thinking his X-whichever is somehow comparable. but i will agree that i wish i had not traded my V10 Touareg! that is a Beast. somehow George thinks he is the arbiter of what a Porsche should or should not be. very comon in our society. marketing myopia...

Bob Rouleau

The Cayenne was a brilliant move by PAG and a success. Without it, we might not have our 911s. The industry is grow or die. If PAG had to depend on 911s only, they'd be swallowed up by one of the larger companies since you need high volume to manage the cost of building, testing and certifying a car these days. I think the Panamera will be a success. Consider how many of us drive *only* a 911, Boxster, Cayman etc. Most of us have a second car, why not another Porsche?

VERBOTN

So I showed the recent excellence to my girls and asked them;

GT3 = wow coo car
Panamera = porsche with a table leaf installed

LMFAO.........

PogueMoHone

A lot of minds are going to be changed after you "experience" this car.

I predict its success will exceed that of the Cayenne.

In fact, if I wanted a 911, I would buy the Panamera and use it to talk the wife into a 911 as a second car.

It would make for an easy process. Just a hint for you guys who might have trouble with the WAF!

Think of the Panamera as having a specific purpose, and the 911 having a more specific purpose.

JohnnyBahamas

There are many times when a table with a leaf added is both more useful and comfortable than a table without.

If it has enough trunk space to fit my needs, then I'm trading in the Cayenne turbo S for a turbo Panamera.

Autarky

I think what George is trying to get at is that the Cayenne and Panamera have minimal linkage to the extensive racing history Porsche possesses. They aren't inspired by the history of Porsche, but by the demand for different classes of motor vehicle. I think the fear is that Porsche is losing touch with its roots, and may turn into a company ala Mercedes Benz and BMW.

On a personal level, until I see reviews and hands-on opinions from members here, my opinion on the car remains indifferent.

ltc

So what happens when PAG is a wholly owned subsidiary/model line of VAG?
The plan was sold on the threat of the '911' dying without complete 100% agreement of his 10 year plan (BTW, the Panamera is the last piece of that plan)
Porsche is dying, under the 'leadership' of Dr. W.

So, it looks as though PAG will be swallowed up by one of the larger companies (VAG) and the 911's future is perhaps the most secure of all of the models in the current PAG lineup. It was interesting to see how many VAG vehicles were 'delayed' or 'cancelled' since they were a threat to current Porsche vehicles (namely Carrera/Boxster)....I'm fairly certain that might change a bit going forward.

I've said for years, Dr. W. was the worst thing to ever happen to Porsche (granted I had a little bit of insight to what goes on behind the curtain at PAG).
Brand dilution, badge buying demographics, etc...that's one thing, but when Marketing is the ultimate authority and Engineering takes a back seat (at all times), you could see it coming.

Sam CS 05

I am no expert so I have one question:

Can Porsche survive by just producing the sports cars in today's world market ?

cobalt

I though the PDK was a great improvement but very pricey and with what little i had to experience i am not so sure the balance of the car was as good. Although IMO the .2 version is a much need step in the right direction. It seemed to be a bit more tail happy possibly because of the size weight and placement of the PDK. Although I hate electronics in my performance cars and would rather go as fast (or slow) as I can in my turbo or 964 than in any of the newer cars with computers calling the shots. These controls are fine for me in a car like a Panamera or Cayenne but have no place for me in a sports car and by that I mean a 911, cayman, GT3 etc.

Lets face it Porsche has had its glory days. The 917 was a brilliant move that won Porsche a lot of notoriety. Most of the winning efforts many of us remember can be attributed to the likes of the late great Al Holbert with the backing of Porsche. Without him there might have been far less heritage for us to connect too. Yes Porsche still makes some fine race cars but so do many other manufacturers and from names we would never have associated with racing a few years back. IMO the market that Porsche is selling new cars to is not us. We are the fanatics not the buyers of the average new Porsche. More Boxsters, caymans and 911's are sold to people that have no interest in anything but the badge and what proceeds them before they enter the restaurant. Most of us wait for the depreciation to hit bottom and then scarf up the good ones. This doesn't take away the fact that the cayman platform is brilliant and probably the most stable platform Porsche has built to date. However, There aren't enough of us with the $$ to keep the company alive buying GT2's & 3's and if they don't market to everyone what will keep the company alive? I see nothing wrong with making a car like the Panamera. It serves a purpose and is injecting Porsche blood into a type of vehicle that has been lacking excitement from other manufacturers. Yes you can say buy a MB S 63 or some other monster truck sedan with way to big of an engine in it but these cars are pathetic in anything but a straight line and are not much different than the muscle cars of the 60's with a bit of luxury added. So as I get older I find more of a need for a car that offers the fun of driving a Porsche and still allows me to cart the family along as my son no longer fits in the back of my turbo and barely fits in the back of my GTS.

The company is once again floundering as it did back in the mid 90's when IMO they made some of their best street products. Unfortunately, very few could afford the turbos and 911's back then and so few were produced. Today we are seeing a different problem with too many cars being produced and therefore reducing its exclusivity which was also part of the allure.

I for one am waiting to see it in person and hopefully have a test drive soon.

Bob Rouleau

Lewis, your question is indeed a good one. If PAG ends up a unit of VAG, things will get muddy for sure. In one regard it is sad that the grand plan to acquire VW was derailed by a global financial meltdown. The feud between the Piech and Porsche/Weideking factions isn't helping either. I am not sure the final cards have been played though.

In regards to Sam CS 05's question, I am pretty sure that Porsche cannot survive as an independent building sports cars alone.

Ucube

So my question to PAG regarding the Panamera is this: I have a family of 5, so who gets left behind -- me, the wife, or one of the kids? PAG builds a sedan for those who want the luxury, comfort, and space, but don't want an SUV. Only they then restricts the seating to 4, relegating me with no choice but the SUV? Is that their form of birth control?

PogueMoHone

^
You have to sacrifice, and follow in the RS!

ltc

FWIW, the Cayenne isn't exactly a 5 seater...maybe 4.5 or so.

Of course, I'll skip the part about the 3rd row ("7 seat") Cayenne variant, killed by the sheer arogance of 'you know who'....Hint: The Evil Dr W.

Now, THAT was a meeting from hell....of course VAG went ahead with the 3rd row seat variant of the Touareg....the Q7.

ltc

Bob,
The arrogance and ego of Dr. W. can simply not be underestimated....trust me.
I never once believed that he had 'Porsche' as his first and foremost priority and interest. There is a reason he is receiving little 'public' support in this drama.

Zuffenhausen Porsche could probably exist as a VAG business unit (although the Boxster/Cayman would have a difficult path going forward considering the competing models from VAG would likely be put back on the table), all Carreras/Boxsters could be built there (of course the whole Finland to Austria transfer might be a bit difficult to cancel) and for all intents and purposes, the Cayenne/Panamera are already VAG products. Now before everyone gets their knickers in a twist, remember that the VAG content and labor in a Cayenne was ~ 85% / 65%.

It will be interesting to follow, no doubt.

George from MD

Say what?

"and yes, the Panamera is a Porsche. George is simply wrong about the car. as he is about thinking his X-whichever is somehow comparable. but i will agree that i wish i had not traded my V10 Touareg! that is a Beast. somehow George thinks he is the arbiter of what a Porsche should or should not be. very comon in our society. marketing myopia... "

Your statement is a bit rude mate. I never said the Panamera wasn't a Porsche and I certainly don't think I'm the arbiter of all things Porsche or suffering from "marketing myopia". (very common, you say? how many cases are there?)

However I have to question Herr Wiediking's judgement just as many others have. To say it isn't about the $ is a crock. It is most certainly about the $. Herr Wonderful is bringing an expensive luxury automobile to market at a time when sales of those models are down 50% or more. I have no doubt it will be a Porsche (an ugly five door hatchback Porsche) with the best that the Porsche engineering department can provide- and Porsche still retains some of the best engineering prowess in the world.

However Herr W, who insisted that the rear roofline be raised to accomodate tall drivers at the end of the design process, contributed to what is (not in just my opinion) one butt ugly car. Not that the current Porsche designers are the equal of Porsche engineers (Dr. Porsche and Ulrich Bez are sadly no longer involved). At any rate, I think Herr Wonderful has overreached and as a result he's diminished the Porsche image.

But the Panamera is only one example of his bad judgment and overreaching- his attempt to take over VW is far worse. I think that in the end Porsche will be OWNED by VW and all thoughts of an independent Porsche relying on SUVs and sedan sales to remain independent (or as a justification for the existence of those vehicles) will be moot. Should that happen you'll certainly know who to thank.

And if you want to compare your 70K list Cayenne against my 70K list X5 that could be the subject of whole different thread. Suffice it to say I bet on the BMW.