Porsche Panamera (Failure)
06-22-2009, 09:34 AM
#76
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George all is good however we weren't talking about $$ we were talking about what the car offers and if it performs like a Porsche. Price is not part of the equation otherwise we can argue that the GT2 is fabulous but at nearly $300k when upgraded to most drivers likes might as well........ etc etc. This argument can be had about many things but it doesn't make a Panamera or Cayenne any less a Porsche than any of the others. Hell for $100k the new 997 with PDK I could argue I can buy a 996TT and blow its doors off without mods etc. Or I can buy a GT-R and do the same but we don't do we? Why because we like Porsche's.
I have driven the BMW's they are the next best thing but not even close IMO. The MB is far worse and almost as much $$. The BMW doesn't perform in my book and after years of owning a multitude of BMW's I can assure you I will not buy another if it was the only car manufacturer left standing. (Which sadly might be the case)
there are many cars I would like to own but not at their $$. My friends F40 is a great car but I prefer my Turbo for hundreds of thousands less and it is more rare.
The argument here is is the Panamara a Porsche and will it appeal to the small market they are targeting. My guess would be Most Definitely.
BTW I purchased my CT new and had to pay very little after BMW purchased my lemon of a car back for almost full purchase value and 4 years of ownership. The 740IL was a great car if it would have been made correctly and didn't have inherent leaking issues. Although as far as driving pleasure it was like driving a limo and depreciated like any new car. like a lead balloon.
So performance might not be what you want from an SUV but I do and it ROCKS. It fills those months I had of Porscheless driving when my others are asleep for the winter or when I want a little fun when doing more than just weekend driving.
I have driven the BMW's they are the next best thing but not even close IMO. The MB is far worse and almost as much $$. The BMW doesn't perform in my book and after years of owning a multitude of BMW's I can assure you I will not buy another if it was the only car manufacturer left standing. (Which sadly might be the case)
there are many cars I would like to own but not at their $$. My friends F40 is a great car but I prefer my Turbo for hundreds of thousands less and it is more rare.
The argument here is is the Panamara a Porsche and will it appeal to the small market they are targeting. My guess would be Most Definitely.
BTW I purchased my CT new and had to pay very little after BMW purchased my lemon of a car back for almost full purchase value and 4 years of ownership. The 740IL was a great car if it would have been made correctly and didn't have inherent leaking issues. Although as far as driving pleasure it was like driving a limo and depreciated like any new car. like a lead balloon.
So performance might not be what you want from an SUV but I do and it ROCKS. It fills those months I had of Porscheless driving when my others are asleep for the winter or when I want a little fun when doing more than just weekend driving.
06-22-2009, 10:36 AM
#77
Rennlist Member
No I compared it to my 1994 964 turbo 3.6 with some mods to an F40. My turbo has 450 hp and 460 torque and is in the same league as many of today's modern sports cars. IMO the F40 has more issues than their worth, has awful fit and finish bad paint with CF showing through not to mention way to costly to maintain and is not really suitable for street use here in the US. So for over 6 times the cost of my one of a kind 94 turbo 3.6 I would take it over an F40 without thinking twice. I have also driven a 288 GTO and although it is not as fun or as easy to drive it looks IMO far better than the F40 and I would take it over the F40 but would still take my turbo instead of both.
To each their own and that was the point I was getting to. If you r car needs to arrive before you and your ego than their are many other cars that would suite most people other than a Porsche.
To each their own and that was the point I was getting to. If you r car needs to arrive before you and your ego than their are many other cars that would suite most people other than a Porsche.
06-23-2009, 06:12 AM
#78
Rennlist Member
Sorry man - had to bite the bait. The 965 3.6 is one of my favorite Porsche - unfortunately the CIS really prevents it from being in the same league as more modern sports cars. Standalone FI definitely can change this...
I still think comparing it to an F40 is apples and oranges. You're comparing a street legal race car to a sports car.
I still think comparing it to an F40 is apples and oranges. You're comparing a street legal race car to a sports car.
06-23-2009, 10:42 AM
#79
Rennlist Member
Sorry man - had to bite the bait. The 965 3.6 is one of my favorite Porsche - unfortunately the CIS really prevents it from being in the same league as more modern sports cars. Standalone FI definitely can change this...
I still think comparing it to an F40 is apples and oranges. You're comparing a street legal race car to a sports car.
I still think comparing it to an F40 is apples and oranges. You're comparing a street legal race car to a sports car.
Will I argue that the cars are apples and oranges. NO. They are, there is no argument here. However, both offer a driving experience that is not so far different. One is more race oriented the other is more sports car based but it is a finer line than you make it out to be. We are only talking tenths of seconds up to 60 and a second up to 125 difference.
I have not had the chance to drive my friends F40 although it is essentially the same engine as used in the 288GTO and I would have no problem putting my car up against the GT0 in current state. The 288GTO is a hard car to control just accelerating in a straight line from standstill is not an easy task. I actually found it to be hard work since the back end wants to swing out under WOT. IMO this spoils the experience and the fun factor. My car is quite stable under all forms of acceleration even when spinning the rear tires. With the extra power and more modern turbo and suspension it is as a rather capable car. At nearly the same power as the F40 Stock my car is still slower although not by much. Does it offer the raw fun factor we are all talking about? Yes in boat loads.
So my point being, as was originally stated I like the F40 would be happy to take one if given to me but for a minimum of $400k for a rat or over $600k for a car in comparable condition as mine I would take my car over an F40 and buy a second vacation home. Hell if I had the money for an F40 why not buy an F50 it is even more advanced and more of a race car based car, has open air but now we are talking $700-$900k for a used car or how about an Enzo we can keep climbing this ladder and where does it stop?
So is one car faster? Yes. Can anyone use this added power and race car technology on the street? No So what does the F40 offer that can't be had or used in a car like my turbo. Just bragging rights.
Getting back to the point of this thread and what originally provoked my comment. The Panamera is a car that offers something new, that no S class MB or similar car can. Just like the F40 there will always be faster cars. Although I have driven with S63's with all sorts of work done to them and they are quite unstable at the speeds they can achieve but IMO are not designed to handle at. Maybe on the autobahn they can cover ground quickly but take it to a twisty road and you are lost.
I am sure the Panamera can outperform and is more fun to drive than my CT and if so will outperform ( I mean acceleration combined with handling and enjoyable driving experience) other cars similar to the S63 MB. So again as the Cayenne Turbo took the SUV to a new level I believe the Panamera has a niche it can fill that is missing from all other manufacturers product lines. This niche is what made the Cayenne an economic success and I feel the possibility is there with this new unwanted brother assuming the economy will allow.
06-23-2009, 01:50 PM
#80
Rennlist Member
Well said Anthony. I agree with most of your logics.
I never felt that if a car is more expensive, then it has to be better. Just to talk about modern days cars, I'll take a new GT3 over most Ferrari or Lambo that cost way more.
As for Panamera, I also predict that it will be a success, but I will reserve my final judgment after my test drive.
I still can't understand why people will hate it without even doing a test drive? I guess there are many levels of car guys, with some that make their comments based on real life test driving, while others will base on magazine reading, internet information, or pure personal speculations.
I never felt that if a car is more expensive, then it has to be better. Just to talk about modern days cars, I'll take a new GT3 over most Ferrari or Lambo that cost way more.
As for Panamera, I also predict that it will be a success, but I will reserve my final judgment after my test drive.
I still can't understand why people will hate it without even doing a test drive? I guess there are many levels of car guys, with some that make their comments based on real life test driving, while others will base on magazine reading, internet information, or pure personal speculations.
06-23-2009, 03:47 PM
#81
Ironman 140.6
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06-25-2009, 04:08 AM
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06-25-2009, 10:44 AM
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06-25-2009, 11:19 AM
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06-25-2009, 11:47 AM
#86
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Yes the cayman is a hatchback for intents and purposes even though it is a mid engined car because the back is open to the passenger compartment. if there was a dividing wall or glass partition it would not be considered a hatchback
06-25-2009, 01:23 PM
#87
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06-25-2009, 02:54 PM
#89
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How can you make judgment if you don't even give it a chance? So what if they like it?
06-25-2009, 03:20 PM
#90
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1. Those I want
2. Those I do not want
It's ugly, that alone puts it way down the list. The Hyundai Genesis Coupe is a very good looking car (especially for a Hyundai). So in the looks category, the Panamera isn't in the same league as Hyundai. There are some very striking automobiles in the same catagory, most of them from Europe and IMO all of them in front of the Porsche.
Don't get me started on the interior.