BMW: bringing 4-cylinders... begining of end of gas engine???
09-05-2011, 08:49 PM
#31
09-05-2011, 08:57 PM
#32
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I apologize for my lack of qualification. Indeed , not all legislation is "bad". To further qualify my previous comment, I believe that sometimes legislation for our own good, as determined by those that in their infinite wisdom know whats best for us, is not "always" a good thing, and sometimes driven by special interests.
We live in a golden age of automobiles where the performance of a soccer mom's SUV can rival that of an old muscle car. I would hate to see an enthusiasts perspective legislated out of the existence, and there are certainly some that would wish to do so.
We live in a golden age of automobiles where the performance of a soccer mom's SUV can rival that of an old muscle car. I would hate to see an enthusiasts perspective legislated out of the existence, and there are certainly some that would wish to do so.
Second, I'll be the first to give up my Porsche or any other performance car if and when it becomes necessary to save our planet, or to keep it a liveable place for our kids and grandkids. And if we're already at that point, I wish they'd just make the regulations already. The problem now is that it's difficult to know whom we should believe.
So for now, I drive and enjoy it. And if one has to have a performance car, Porsche's are much more responsible than American muscle cars or even the Vantage, Maserati, Lambo, and others that have horrid mpg averages.
09-05-2011, 09:04 PM
#33
You guys are all missing the point, 30mpg is achievable today with 4-cyl turbo, when we get to 40mpg and then 50mpg, something's gotto give! and note that it applies to ALL car makers across ALL brands... so Porsche, Ferrari, Aston, Lotus, Lamroghini range HAS TO be 40mpg and then 50mpg on average... now you tell me if that's not gonna limit the options offered to consumers?!
The technology and the engineering is there. We will have fast cars and efficient cars. Don't worry yourself to sleep about it. Life will still be good, and arguably even better.
718 horsepower mid-engine V-8 with two electric motors. And 78.4 mpg. 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, tops out at 198 mph and a Nurburgring lap of 7.5 minutes. And motivated by current and future CAFE rules, aka legislation. Yes, expensive today but soon affordable as more technology and production methods develop. Even the price of a current 997.2 is actually cheap considering what you get and what it would have cost 30 years ago.
09-05-2011, 10:46 PM
#34
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Wait a minute, you think BMW lost their "sporting advantage" but yet you are seriously looking at cars that are even less sporty?! Ok, Audi A6...maybe... some can argue that it is pretty sporty, IMO 5 series is still better balanced,...but Lexus GS??
09-05-2011, 10:55 PM
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It looks like the new A6 is now the handling benchmark in the class. The F10 5 Series added a lot of weight in the transition from the E60, and the 2012 Audi has the measure of it in the handling department. BMW softened the 5 Series with this iteration, whereas Audi focused more on handling and also worked much harder on keeping weight under control to the point where the supercharged 3.0 Quattro A6 weighs about the same or less as the RWD 535i.
09-05-2011, 11:45 PM
#36
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Sure. If I can't have truly sporty, with a 6MT and a nice firm ride, then it opens up the field to shop for other competitors which might warrant consideration for other merits. The Audi has superior styling to BMW, while the Lexus seems to be a great value, and probably an extremely comfortable road muncher for long commutes.
09-05-2011, 11:53 PM
#37
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It looks like the new A6 is now the handling benchmark in the class. The F10 5 Series added a lot of weight in the transition from the E60, and the 2012 Audi has the measure of it in the handling department. BMW softened the 5 Series with this iteration, whereas Audi focused more on handling and also worked much harder on keeping weight under control to the point where the supercharged 3.0 Quattro A6 weighs about the same or less as the RWD 535i.
I drove the Audi back to back against the Bimmer recently. Granted, the test drives were with BMWNA, and the tests were to point out BMW's strengths. The Audi was impressive, but was no clear winner. In fact, the tests we did still concluded with the usual FWD based vehicle flaws. I can't bring myself to like the feel of a front weight biased vehicle. Especially coming from a BMW or a Porsche.
There were a couple of German testing engineers there, and they sorta made it clear that if a customer want the old school BMW feel from now on, he will need RWD, stick shift, Msport package, ARS and dynamic handling, with chassis and transmission mode checked off. Other wise, the other variants of BMWs are catered more toward the masses.
09-05-2011, 11:59 PM
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Sorry, can't agree with you on some. Although, I will confess that I am much involved with BMWNA than just any forum troll or fanboy.
I drove the Audi back to back against the Bimmer recently. Granted, the test drives were with BMWNA, and the tests were to point out BMW's strengths. The Audi was impressive, but was no clear winner. In fact, the tests we did still concluded with the usual FWD based vehicle flaws. I can't bring myself to like the feel of a front weight biased vehicle. Especially coming from a BMW or a Porsche.
There were a couple of German testing engineers there, and they sorta made it clear that if a customer want the old school BMW feel from now on, he will need RWD, stick shift, Msport package, ARS and dynamic handling, with chassis and transmission mode checked off. Other wise, the other variants of BMWs are catered more toward the masses.
I drove the Audi back to back against the Bimmer recently. Granted, the test drives were with BMWNA, and the tests were to point out BMW's strengths. The Audi was impressive, but was no clear winner. In fact, the tests we did still concluded with the usual FWD based vehicle flaws. I can't bring myself to like the feel of a front weight biased vehicle. Especially coming from a BMW or a Porsche.
There were a couple of German testing engineers there, and they sorta made it clear that if a customer want the old school BMW feel from now on, he will need RWD, stick shift, Msport package, ARS and dynamic handling, with chassis and transmission mode checked off. Other wise, the other variants of BMWs are catered more toward the masses.
I think that "old school" 5 series we loved is dead. In 550i guise, the latest generation now weighs over 4400 lbs. As a 550i xDrive, it nudges a quite disgraceful (for a sedan) 4600 lbs! The F10 is a great car, no doubt, but I don't think it's the clear segment leader in the way that the E39 and E60 were. With the latest iteration, BMW has moved the focus of the 5 Series from sport to luxury. In the process, and for what it's worth, the F10 in the US at least is some way behind the W212 Benz in the marketplace. I wonder if in part it's due to BMW's change in focus?
Last edited by swajames; 09-06-2011 at 12:28 AM.
09-06-2011, 12:57 AM
#39
Have any of you driven a BMW with runflat tires on less-than-perfect roads? It is horrible. The ride is rough adn BMW had to soften the suspension a bit to deal with it. The ride is not sports firm but pickup truck firm.
09-06-2011, 12:59 AM
#40
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We all vote with our wallets so we get what suits us best. But the F10 isn't the driver focused car that my two E60's were. The Quattro by the way is 60/40 rear bias, and the car outperforms the RWD F10 on the skidpad. BMW isn't going to spec a competitor car the way a customer might spec it, those manufacturer-sponsored comparison tests and driving events are probably not the best way to compare cars. A 3.0 A6 is faster than a 535, and it now corners harder.
The "old school" 5 series is dead. In 550i guise, this one weighs over 4400 lbs. As a 550i xDrive, it nudges a quite disgraceful 4600 lbs. The F10 is a great car, but it isn't the segment leader in the way that the E39 and E60 were (and it is getting hammered in the marketplace by the W212 Benz which is outselling it by some margin).
The "old school" 5 series is dead. In 550i guise, this one weighs over 4400 lbs. As a 550i xDrive, it nudges a quite disgraceful 4600 lbs. The F10 is a great car, but it isn't the segment leader in the way that the E39 and E60 were (and it is getting hammered in the marketplace by the W212 Benz which is outselling it by some margin).
OK. The test drive event are not for end consumers, there was nothing to sell, no product specialist or facilitators. Just BMW execs, engineers and a few pro drivers. Like I said, I am biased, but everything I learned from A6 vs 5series were hands on, not from a brochure or a training manual. i am no bench racer. I own one, I drive one, I race one. Again, from my experience, I prefer the BMW. I am on my Nth BMW, and occasionally i get to take a competitors car home. So i know what you mean by bmw gone soft. The gap is much smaller now.
I come up with market strategies to sell against our competitors and that includes testing and interviewing my competitors. I know about my competitors as much as I know BMW. If you love your Audi or MB, good for you. They are lovely cars. Wouldn't kick it out of my own driveway. But if I was ever sold on anything by BMW, is 50:50 weight distribution, any non 911 owners can attest to that.
FYI, internally, we are thrill to bits about our 5 series sales. And I wouldn't say that we are getting "hammered" by MB, considering they RDR'd E class with coupes and CLS. Also considering, with all the trunk money they have, there are many cars that were retailed and are still on dealers lot. Plus, they ramped up their fleet sales. This new 528xi is going to be great for us. We'll see after Q4.
09-06-2011, 01:19 AM
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OK. The test drive event are not for end consumers, there was nothing to sell, no product specialist or facilitators. Just BMW execs, engineers and a few pro drivers. Like I said, I am biased, but everything I learned from A6 vs 5series were hands on, not from a brochure or a training manual. i am no bench racer. I own one, I drive one, I race one. Again, from my experience, I prefer the BMW. I am on my Nth BMW, and occasionally i get to take a competitors car home. So i know what you mean by bmw gone soft. The gap is much smaller now.
I come up with market strategies to sell against our competitors and that includes testing and interviewing my competitors. I know about my competitors as much as I know BMW. If you love your Audi or MB, good for you. They are lovely cars. Wouldn't kick it out of my own driveway. But if I was ever sold on anything by BMW, is 50:50 weight distribution, any non 911 owners can attest to that.
FYI, internally, we are thrill to bits about our 5 series sales. And I wouldn't say that we are getting "hammered" by MB, considering they RDR'd E class with coupes and CLS. Also considering, with all the trunk money they have, there are many cars that were retailed and are still on dealers lot. Plus, they ramped up their fleet sales. This new 528xi is going to be great for us. We'll see after Q4.
I come up with market strategies to sell against our competitors and that includes testing and interviewing my competitors. I know about my competitors as much as I know BMW. If you love your Audi or MB, good for you. They are lovely cars. Wouldn't kick it out of my own driveway. But if I was ever sold on anything by BMW, is 50:50 weight distribution, any non 911 owners can attest to that.
FYI, internally, we are thrill to bits about our 5 series sales. And I wouldn't say that we are getting "hammered" by MB, considering they RDR'd E class with coupes and CLS. Also considering, with all the trunk money they have, there are many cars that were retailed and are still on dealers lot. Plus, they ramped up their fleet sales. This new 528xi is going to be great for us. We'll see after Q4.
I wish you well with the 528 - you'll find no pushback from me about the transition to four cylinders from the prior inline six, the new four cylinder engine looks like a winner. But you guys have got to get that weight under control!!!
09-06-2011, 03:45 AM
#42
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And offer a 6MT with the new turbo 4.
09-06-2011, 05:34 PM
#43
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Thread Starter
In 1978 the VW Golf ( Rabbit) got about 25 mpg overall and weighed about 2000 lbs. It had 71 hp from 1.5L. The car did 0-60 in about 10 seconds. It had no power windows maybe a 3 speed auto ( with lower mpg), maybe A/C, no power steering, no radio.
Today that car weighs about 3,100 lbs., comes with p/s, A/C, p/w, galvanized steel, airbags, stereo as good as aftermarket in the 70s. It has a 170 hp engine and goes from 0- 60 in something like 8.5 seconds. It is roomier, much safer, handles better and gets at least as good mpg. VW is coming out with 1.4L engines that produce close to 200 hp. I use VW as an example but there are all types of technologies available out there and what the auto companies and their suppliers are working on is how to make those techniques cheaper. I am not pessimistic at all about this situation.
Today that car weighs about 3,100 lbs., comes with p/s, A/C, p/w, galvanized steel, airbags, stereo as good as aftermarket in the 70s. It has a 170 hp engine and goes from 0- 60 in something like 8.5 seconds. It is roomier, much safer, handles better and gets at least as good mpg. VW is coming out with 1.4L engines that produce close to 200 hp. I use VW as an example but there are all types of technologies available out there and what the auto companies and their suppliers are working on is how to make those techniques cheaper. I am not pessimistic at all about this situation.
So, if you want your cake and eat it too at 50mpg, something's gotto give.
09-06-2011, 05:37 PM
#44
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Thread Starter
Why does "something gotta give?" Efficiency has improved dramatically over the decades and yet performance has increased 20 fold. Horsepower and torque is insane these days compared to yesteryear and yet with better mpg, safety, and emissions. And no more leaded gasoline either. Remember when leaded gasoline was legislated out? The performance crowd thought that the world had ended.
The technology and the engineering is there. We will have fast cars and efficient cars. Don't worry yourself to sleep about it. Life will still be good, and arguably even better.
718 horsepower mid-engine V-8 with two electric motors. And 78.4 mpg. 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, tops out at 198 mph and a Nurburgring lap of 7.5 minutes. And motivated by current and future CAFE rules, aka legislation. Yes, expensive today but soon affordable as more technology and production methods develop. Even the price of a current 997.2 is actually cheap considering what you get and what it would have cost 30 years ago.
The technology and the engineering is there. We will have fast cars and efficient cars. Don't worry yourself to sleep about it. Life will still be good, and arguably even better.
718 horsepower mid-engine V-8 with two electric motors. And 78.4 mpg. 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, tops out at 198 mph and a Nurburgring lap of 7.5 minutes. And motivated by current and future CAFE rules, aka legislation. Yes, expensive today but soon affordable as more technology and production methods develop. Even the price of a current 997.2 is actually cheap considering what you get and what it would have cost 30 years ago.
Oh yeah, ofcourse, make a car with FULL carbon fiber body, as light as F1 cars, use Titanium for engine parts, and use a gold plated engine like McLaren F1 car with 1.4Litre, you will have a GREAT performing car with MPG that will cost hmm maybe, $500K?
09-06-2011, 05:44 PM
#45
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Thread Starter
I agree! When I was deciding between my A4 and 3-series, was totally shocked how BMW was softened up... I think the first *mod* serious BMW buyers do, is to swap the runflat tires right after leaving the dealership!