Is Tesla in trouble?
05-15-2018, 03:19 PM
#106
Rennlist Member
I disagree with this. If any electric cars depend on subsidies, Tesla is the least - $7,500 tax credit means very little to a $150K MSRP car. You get the same credit on your $30,000 Volt/e-golf, which is super-significant. As a non-fan boy owner of a model S, the car is simply better than anything else out there made by ICE mfg's. If you can get over the plugging in and 300 mile range, this car runs circles around anything else on pretty much every metric.
05-15-2018, 03:29 PM
#107
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Tesla is no different, and if anything is actually a net positive to taxpayers with the jobs they are creating for a measly government "investment" of $4.9B across all of Musk's companies.
In it's entire history ALL of the Musk companies have gotten indirect and direct support of $4.9B. This is not "upside down", government teat-sucking operation by any stretch of the imagination.
If you can concede that (and only that!), I think this conversation can actually move forward.
When you qualify $4.9B as measly.....
In context, that number is from 2015 and is from before Tesla sold offset credits to the tune of almost $1B more. Considering that the sales of such carbon offset credits is a purely government manufactured scheme, it should be additive to the total benefit.,
In context, that number is from 2015 and is from before Tesla sold offset credits to the tune of almost $1B more. Considering that the sales of such carbon offset credits is a purely government manufactured scheme, it should be additive to the total benefit.,
And this is an ongoing scam. It's not one that has run its course yet.
05-15-2018, 05:09 PM
#108
Ok. I figured out the answer. It is always about money. My daughter and wife are in the communist state of CA to see Taylor Swift. My daughter just texted me that gas was $5.19/gallon.
A few years ago gas went up over $4/gallon here. Remember what happened? People ditched SUV and large cars. Now that gas is back down most of the country does not care.
But when gas is that expensive you are willing to put up with the short comings and inconvenience of an electric car.
I know there are always exceptions. Somewhere where gas is cheap someone will get an electric commuter. Or maybe someone does it for "green" reasons.
But unless the government forces it, the vast majority of people won't change.
A few years ago gas went up over $4/gallon here. Remember what happened? People ditched SUV and large cars. Now that gas is back down most of the country does not care.
But when gas is that expensive you are willing to put up with the short comings and inconvenience of an electric car.
I know there are always exceptions. Somewhere where gas is cheap someone will get an electric commuter. Or maybe someone does it for "green" reasons.
But unless the government forces it, the vast majority of people won't change.
05-15-2018, 05:33 PM
#109
Registered User
Originally Posted by dgjks6
Ok. I figured out the answer. It is always about money. My daughter and wife are in the communist state of CA to see Taylor Swift. My daughter just texted me that gas was $5.19/gallon.
A few years ago gas went up over $4/gallon here. Remember what happened? People ditched SUV and large cars. Now that gas is back down most of the country does not care.
But when gas is that expensive you are willing to put up with the short comings and inconvenience of an electric car.
I know there are always exceptions. Somewhere where gas is cheap someone will get an electric commuter. Or maybe someone does it for "green" reasons.
But unless the government forces it, the vast majority of people won't change.
A few years ago gas went up over $4/gallon here. Remember what happened? People ditched SUV and large cars. Now that gas is back down most of the country does not care.
But when gas is that expensive you are willing to put up with the short comings and inconvenience of an electric car.
I know there are always exceptions. Somewhere where gas is cheap someone will get an electric commuter. Or maybe someone does it for "green" reasons.
But unless the government forces it, the vast majority of people won't change.
05-15-2018, 05:59 PM
#110
Ok. I figured out the answer. It is always about money. My daughter and wife are in the communist state of CA to see Taylor Swift. My daughter just texted me that gas was $5.19/gallon.
A few years ago gas went up over $4/gallon here. Remember what happened? People ditched SUV and large cars. Now that gas is back down most of the country does not care.
But when gas is that expensive you are willing to put up with the short comings and inconvenience of an electric car.
I know there are always exceptions. Somewhere where gas is cheap someone will get an electric commuter. Or maybe someone does it for "green" reasons.
But unless the government forces it, the vast majority of people won't change.
A few years ago gas went up over $4/gallon here. Remember what happened? People ditched SUV and large cars. Now that gas is back down most of the country does not care.
But when gas is that expensive you are willing to put up with the short comings and inconvenience of an electric car.
I know there are always exceptions. Somewhere where gas is cheap someone will get an electric commuter. Or maybe someone does it for "green" reasons.
But unless the government forces it, the vast majority of people won't change.
FWIW, I don't care about gas prices or "green" anything. I just wanted the greatest muscle car ever made, and it's American as well. I don't even care that it's electric, it just happens to be because this level of perf is pretty much impossible otherwise. Feels good to take the crown for something we invented back from AMG.
As far as subsidies go, I generally despise them. However, it's not very smart to hate on a company for taking advantage of them. If I were on the board of a company where the CEO refused to take an available subsidy or tax credit, I'd fire him on the spot.
The real enemy is our activist government wasting our tax dollars. Deflecting our ire to the company is us getting played by the govt. and media.
BTW, there's a website called Good Jobs First that shows how much subsidy and bailout money a company has taken.
Tesla has taken $2.4B. (That includes $1B from Nevada for the Gigafactory, but only if Tesla makes $10B there over the next 20 years.)
FCA has taken $19.8B.
GM has taken $56.4B.
Ford has taken $31.6B.
05-15-2018, 06:05 PM
#111
Team Owner
Ok. I figured out the answer. It is always about money. My daughter and wife are in the communist state of CA to see Taylor Swift. My daughter just texted me that gas was $5.19/gallon.
A few years ago gas went up over $4/gallon here. Remember what happened? People ditched SUV and large cars. Now that gas is back down most of the country does not care.
But when gas is that expensive you are willing to put up with the short comings and inconvenience of an electric car.
I know there are always exceptions. Somewhere where gas is cheap someone will get an electric commuter. Or maybe someone does it for "green" reasons.
But unless the government forces it, the vast majority of people won't change.
A few years ago gas went up over $4/gallon here. Remember what happened? People ditched SUV and large cars. Now that gas is back down most of the country does not care.
But when gas is that expensive you are willing to put up with the short comings and inconvenience of an electric car.
I know there are always exceptions. Somewhere where gas is cheap someone will get an electric commuter. Or maybe someone does it for "green" reasons.
But unless the government forces it, the vast majority of people won't change.
If fuel were $20 / gal, yeah, it may make sense to me given not only fuel but the much lower maintenance too. I suspect the actual number is lower than $20 but I don't care because it's moot at this time.
The further issue is if petrol is $20/gal. what will the cost of electricity be? It's a heck of a leap of faith that we can up demand, what, over 100%, to convert a part of the fleet to e.
05-15-2018, 06:11 PM
#112
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As far as subsidies go, I generally despise them. However, it's not very smart to hate on a company for taking advantage of them. If I were on the board of a company where the CEO refused to take an available subsidy or tax credit, I'd fire him on the spot.
The real enemy is our activist government wasting our tax dollars. Deflecting our ire to the company is us getting played by the govt. and media.
BTW, there's a website called Good Jobs First that shows how much subsidy and bailout money a company has taken.
Tesla has taken $2.4B. (That includes $1B from Nevada for the Gigafactory, but only if Tesla makes $10B there over the next 20 years.)
FCA has taken $19.8B.
GM has taken $56.4B.
Ford has taken $31.6B.
The real enemy is our activist government wasting our tax dollars. Deflecting our ire to the company is us getting played by the govt. and media.
BTW, there's a website called Good Jobs First that shows how much subsidy and bailout money a company has taken.
Tesla has taken $2.4B. (That includes $1B from Nevada for the Gigafactory, but only if Tesla makes $10B there over the next 20 years.)
FCA has taken $19.8B.
GM has taken $56.4B.
Ford has taken $31.6B.
Look, in the end, any electric car manufacturer is better off without subsidies. They have to figure out how to do it without that money and other fake incentives/cash cows. That's how you develop the best product and build a company that has a shot at lasting.
And pointing out previous bad acts is not in any way a defense of the situation that Tesla currently finds itself in. I wonder how many more times this will be done on this thread.
05-15-2018, 06:29 PM
#113
I don't think it's harsh. Personal opinions should stay personal. Encouraging corporate leaders to follow their hearts in ways that directly disadvantage the company is not only bad business but opens a door to evil things ala Google, Facebook, etc.
Again, I agree without reservation that subsidies and government social engineering in general are a bad idea. Remove the word "electric" and/or "car" above and it's even more generally true.
You missed the point. No one is defending current subsidies based on past subsidies (I hope). Many posts in this thread imply that Tesla is somehow the only one taking subsidies, or at least taking an outsized chunk, when the opposite is true. I listed relative subsidy amounts for perspective. I would bet money those numbers are news to at least some readers.
You missed the point. No one is defending current subsidies based on past subsidies (I hope). Many posts in this thread imply that Tesla is somehow the only one taking subsidies, or at least taking an outsized chunk, when the opposite is true. I listed relative subsidy amounts for perspective. I would bet money those numbers are news to at least some readers.
05-15-2018, 06:44 PM
#114
Race Director
Ok. I figured out the answer. It is always about money. My daughter and wife are in the communist state of CA to see Taylor Swift. My daughter just texted me that gas was $5.19/gallon.
A few years ago gas went up over $4/gallon here. Remember what happened? People ditched SUV and large cars. Now that gas is back down most of the country does not care.
But when gas is that expensive you are willing to put up with the short comings and inconvenience of an electric car.
I know there are always exceptions. Somewhere where gas is cheap someone will get an electric commuter. Or maybe someone does it for "green" reasons.
But unless the government forces it, the vast majority of people won't change.
A few years ago gas went up over $4/gallon here. Remember what happened? People ditched SUV and large cars. Now that gas is back down most of the country does not care.
But when gas is that expensive you are willing to put up with the short comings and inconvenience of an electric car.
I know there are always exceptions. Somewhere where gas is cheap someone will get an electric commuter. Or maybe someone does it for "green" reasons.
But unless the government forces it, the vast majority of people won't change.
05-15-2018, 06:48 PM
#115
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It could be a corporate decision and be a very good decision for the company.
Again, I agree without reservation that subsidies and government social engineering in general are a bad idea. Remove the word "electric" and/or "car" above and it's even more generally true.
You missed the point. No one is defending current subsidies based on past subsidies (I hope). Many posts in this thread imply that Tesla is somehow the only one taking subsidies, or at least taking an outsized chunk, when the opposite is true. I listed relative subsidy amounts for perspective. I would bet money those numbers are news to at least some readers.
05-15-2018, 06:50 PM
#116
Team Owner
In almost unbelievable news, Ford announced it will stop selling cars other than Mustang and focus (ha ha) on SUV and trucks. Smooth move.
05-15-2018, 06:54 PM
#117
Team Owner
Meanwhile, in Switzerland, Tesla kills another owner
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...trapped-inside
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...trapped-inside
05-15-2018, 07:29 PM
#118
I’d be curious how the death rates per 1000 cars compare between Tesla and other makes. I suspect that Tesla makes the news because of the relative scarcity of the “thermal runaway” (or whatever they call the lith ion battery fires) and not for a general lack of safety.
My main gripe about Tesla is not the cars burning themselves, but rather the cavalier way the CEO views the cash burn. It’s bad business (IMO) that could be avoided by bringing in someone who knows how to run an industrial corporation, rather than a start up.
My main gripe about Tesla is not the cars burning themselves, but rather the cavalier way the CEO views the cash burn. It’s bad business (IMO) that could be avoided by bringing in someone who knows how to run an industrial corporation, rather than a start up.
05-15-2018, 08:22 PM
#119
Team Owner
I’d be curious how the death rates per 1000 cars compare between Tesla and other makes. I suspect that Tesla makes the news because of the relative scarcity of the “thermal runaway” (or whatever they call the lith ion battery fires) and not for a general lack of safety.
My main gripe about Tesla is not the cars burning themselves, but rather the cavalier way the CEO views the cash burn. It’s bad business (IMO) that could be avoided by bringing in someone who knows how to run an industrial corporation, rather than a start up.
My main gripe about Tesla is not the cars burning themselves, but rather the cavalier way the CEO views the cash burn. It’s bad business (IMO) that could be avoided by bringing in someone who knows how to run an industrial corporation, rather than a start up.
05-15-2018, 08:31 PM
#120
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If there is a death from an airbag that's not really the same thing as a death from exploding batteries and the fire it created.