Rubik

So I was just doing some tire shopping for my my Macan which of course is not needed for hopefully another 25K miles. I realized the tires my Macan came with (Goodyear Eagle LS-2) are POS. They're N Rated, but have only medium ratings in almost every category on TireRack. Why would Porsche do this when in fact there are other tires that are equally or lower priced but much higher rated e.g. Pirelli Scorpion All Season Verde Plus (not N-rated but who gives a sh*t!) I had imagined a company like Porsche would be highly performance oriented.

1MORLAP

Why would you even get an all-season tire if you live in Burbank? I am very happy with my Michelin summers. They probably sell them as a joke on the people who specify an all-season tire on a Porsche.

Petevb

N spec tires often have relatively little to do with non N spec tires that carry the same name. Compound and construction will likely both be bespoke to Porsche.

Porsche has multiple tire manufactures compete to become OEM fitment. They outline a minimum specification based on best in class performance of previous generation tires: wear, rolling resistance, wet performance, etc. Manufactures then build and submit new tires for testing, Porsche pics two (presumably the best two for their purposes) and these become OEM fitment. The next generation spec lists the better performing of the two options as the new baseline and the process is repeated.

Tire Rack ratings capture none of this. A PZero which is the latest tech from Pirelli is lumped in with the ratings of tires which are generations, even decades old in their rating system. Bottom line you can't say much about how well the N-spec LS-2s perform based on the Tire Rack ratings, but you can rest assured that if it's a recent N spec tire isn't not garbage. Which doesn't mean there isn't something slightly better for your purposes.

Rubik

Joke's on me I guess!

BTW, which Michelin's did yours come with? I'm assuming it's the Lattitude Sport 3s. Dude, 220 UTQG rating for an SUV is way too low IMO. I'm sure it's grippy as hell though!

Rubik

I understand your reply. That's how the system works. But I've never been crazy about the "N-Rated" concept. I think it's for people that know nothing about cars. They go to Costco for tires and the Costco guy says: "You need N-Rated tires." and they agree. For me, it's research and buy the best rated irrespective of N-Rated.

For example, I have Michellin Pilot Super Sports on my 911. They were not N-Rated when I bought them but they are the best rated sport and street tire out there, and they are still not N-Rated.

NateOZ

All seasons are garbage, N-rated or not. They're getting better but I still don't run them on any car, SUV or sports car. I have a storage locker with 4 winter sets in it at the moment and really enjoy driving my sports cars in winter most of all

cviles

Well, the N-rating isn't entirely nothing or just a marketing ploy. My 911 came with Continental SportContact2 tires. I don't like mixing different tires on my cars, so the first time I went to replace the rears I stuck with Continentals. My installer ordered the "regular" Continental SC2 tires in my size. What showed up was a completely different tire from the n-spec'd radial. Load rating was different (much lower), tread pattern was very different, etc. A completely different construction was used for the standard tire. The SportContact2 was being discontinued anyway, so I bit the bullet and switched all four to Michelins.

Now to Michelins, my Boxster came with them and I liked them. And because I tracked my Boxster I replaced quite a few of them and learned a lot about them, too. When Michelin develops an n-rated tire for Porsche they often only produce that tire design in that size. You'll see a blank oval on the sidewall where the n-rating number would go and Michelin sells that as a "regular" tire. Same tire, different marking, and about the same price as well.

I can't speak about other tire manufacturer's products, but n-ratings on tires aren't just some scam. You can do some research and maybe be fine, but sometimes it's a false economy to risk a $60,000-$100,000 car to save $400 on a set of tires.

Petevb

I like the N rated concept, despite understanding its limitations, because it does have significant advantages.

Older N spec tires are where you'll most often be able to do better than what the factory specs. The reason is simple: summer tires are getting sticker at .~5% per year on average, so an old spec N rated PS2 will be trumped by a new spec PSS.

Just because a tire is good and current generation doesn't mean it will work well on a particular car, however, especially if that car is a 911 which is notoriously hard on rear tires. Tires for RWD cars are optimized to either drive or steer, not both. A generic PSS splits the difference, meaning it's ideal for neither- less of an issue on a Macan, but a real issue on a 911. Then there's sidewall stiffness and balance, which vary from tire to tire. For example: the new Dunlop Sport Max Race, current figment on the GT3, results in terminal understeer on my car, where the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2, the other current GT3 fitment, is completely balanced, while the Hankook RS-3 loves to oversteer. All in exactly the same sizes. So even the average guy who thinks they know something about cars is pretty likely to get themselves in trouble if they are not careful.

If you can find solid reviews in your sizes it's less of a crap-shoot. Better tire tests, ie EVO or GRM, give different winners for FWD and RWD cars. Using this and other info you may be able to devine a better option for your car. Or you can choose N spec and know the tires will work pretty well. Generally if your car is less than a few years old that's by far the safer bet, unless you are changing the mission of your car. If you're willing to sacrifice cold weather performance, for example, a tire swap is a no brainer. Just don't blindly use tire rack tests and ratings without understanding the limitations.

Sven76

UTQG ratings are purely marketing based. Had 60 rated Pirellis on my Lotus and got 10,000 miles and more out of them, exactly the same I get from 200+rated Michelin on the Porsche.

Rubik

Yes, I agree. But we have no other choice but to make our choices based on the available spec information out there.

cviles

That's because you switched brands. The wear rating isn't a ratio against any standard reference tire, it's a comparison against another tire by the same manufacturer. And one that manufacturer got to choose. I'll agree that those ratings are pretty much worthless, but it's worse to think those numbers mean anything when you cross brands.

Rubik

Thanks for the comment. Just to clarify, saving a few bucks on tires is not the intent here. I'm more interested in specification and performance. When I got my M-PSSs on my 911, I could have gone the cheaper route but I didn't.

Thanks for the insight. I looked at EVO test results. I guess each test has some kind of handicap. For example, they excluded M-PSS in their Max Performance Summer tire comparison because the test was using 17s and the M-PSSs start at 18s, consequently they were not included. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not a Michelin fan boy, but it's important to note that even professional tests are not always an apple to apple comparison.

Agree. I always feel that Pirellis are softer tires irrespective of the UTQG rating on the sidewall.

1MORLAP

Look, I would be mad too if my Porsche came with Goodyears. I never liked them, but I know that many German manufacturers put them on their cars.

Yes, I have the Michelin Latitude Sport 3, and they look like Pilot Super Sports to me. I love them, and would be hard pressed to switch when the time comes. As to the longevity... well the SUV is not any heavier than mid size sedans - A6, 5-series, etc. so I expect reasonable wear; furthermore I ordered a set of dedicated winter tires. This way if I put 10,000 miles on the car per year, 3,000 or so of that will be on a second set of tires.

Well, this review from TireRack explains how you got the GoodYears - from Audi - "These tires are amazing. I had put Michelin Super Sport PS2's on my last car (a 330i sedan) and loved them. When I saw that Michelin had designed these specifically for the new Porsche Macan, I knew I had to put them on my Q5 (which the Macan is based on). The Goodyear Eagle LS2's that came with the car were awful. They slid around in the rain like slicks, and where I live it rains a lot. These Michelin Latitude Sport 3's literally handle better in the wet than the Goodyear's did in the dry! I have not felt the car slip once even when pushing it in the rain (when it was safe to do so). Granted, these will have very short tread life, but I only drive around 6k miles per year, so that is not an issue for me. These tires are top-notch."

Rubik

I wonder if the fact that the Goodyears are made in Germany has anything to do with it.

Funny, I read that review as well. I think this is the one that caused this thread.

Petevb

Just remember my comments above. The Goodyear Eagle LS-2s on the Q5 in the review above are different than those made for the Macan. Not only does the Macan use staggered sizes front and rear, but the N spec tires of the same nominal size has a different listed tread width and weight. This indicates a different mold, construction, etc. He may well have been just as impressed sticking the N spec LS2's on as the Michelins. In this case N spec makes a big difference.

Another anecdote- I know a development engineer for a big 3 manufacture who was doing tire testing for new car setup. They tested Michelin Pilot Sport 2s in various sizes, including the then current BMW M3 and M5 BMW spec sizes. The M5 tires were significantly larger, but the M3 used a different, stickier compound and sportier construction. They gripped better despite being far narrower, against his expectations. Bottom line once manufactures start tuning tires the name means far less than you'd expect.

Goodyear/ Dunlop is capable of making near best in class tires- Asymmetrics had some of the very best wet performance for their time. Wear rate seems to have fallen slightly behind Michelin recently, but then most performance Michelins tend to harden at half life, so in terms of usable treadlife the gap is probably smaller.