Macan vs Audi Q5D
05-21-2014, 06:43 PM
#76
@rpilot...you have an answer for everything. Amazing how you just nailed the demo of VW diesel buyers and then describe why VW pushes diesels over gassers.
Your logic, of course, is flawed...and you keep coming back with more noise. Not trying to win a battle here...just looking forward to the diesel Macan down the road.
Your logic, of course, is flawed...and you keep coming back with more noise. Not trying to win a battle here...just looking forward to the diesel Macan down the road.
05-21-2014, 07:03 PM
#77
05-26-2014, 06:44 AM
#78
About Diesel v.s. premium gas prices, do not forget one thing : A refinery (which is basically a distillation process), is producing different “core products”, these ranging from asphalt, lubricant oil, diesel, kerosene, gasoline, butane, etc..
But, there are no “switch” in the control room that says something like “today we make Diesel only”.
One barrel of crude oil makes a fixed amount of each of the products in the above list.
OK, for the purists, it is true that in the modern refinery (no many of these !) it is possible to “tweak” a little bit, to make a bit more percent of the most desired product, using a technology called “Cracking”, ..but this does cost a lot of energy (in) to do, so, and knowing already that for example the (total) of the 140 refineries of the USA are the largest consumers of natural gas of the country, I doubt that they are playing so much with cracking these days.
All to say that a given barrel of crude oil makes pretty much a fix percent of diesel, and a fixed percent of premium gas.
This is why, (I do not know if this is still true) that at in a time Europe was using more Diesel than gas from the local production, ..got boat loads (crossing the Atlantic) of Diesel from USA !
So, the speculation that you can do in the price differences ..is simply driven by the market, ..and the usage of the “natural product mix” of what a barrel of crude oil can do. (Do not expect to have any of the oil company throwing away back in the dwell ..the left over unsold !)
Or, to be more “direct” : Yes, if “everyone” would buy a Diesel car (..like for example in France), then, the Diesel price will become much higher than the premium !
I can add another thing : we are buying these (premium or Diesel) by gallons, while the logic would be to buy it by weight, as the energy in these products is in direct relation to the mass of the product. Why I’m saying that ?
..Simply because Diesel is “heavier” than premium.
This should explain why a Diesel engine seems to use less gallon, for the same performance. I’m ready to bet that if we would buy these by weight, the motivation that Diesel burn “less”, ..would be gone !
And the last one, just for fun : to my taste (may be some of you would have a different one !) (re)Filling a Diesel car makes your hands be smelly. I just hate this odor.
(I had 2 (out of 5) Diesel Range Rover in the past, and would NEVER let my wife filling the car. Having a wife that have hands that smell Diesel is not something very desirable (imo) !!
OK, Audi has won Le Mans so many times with Diesel cars, in such ways that many “followers like that”, (kind of a known social language, right?), but, what is the real motivation beyond that ?
I think it is quite simple : The large oil companies simply drive the market, to have the best possible equivalent of usage, ..versus the production, in order to have the best possible price for these !
..Very logical.
..my two cents !
But, there are no “switch” in the control room that says something like “today we make Diesel only”.
One barrel of crude oil makes a fixed amount of each of the products in the above list.
OK, for the purists, it is true that in the modern refinery (no many of these !) it is possible to “tweak” a little bit, to make a bit more percent of the most desired product, using a technology called “Cracking”, ..but this does cost a lot of energy (in) to do, so, and knowing already that for example the (total) of the 140 refineries of the USA are the largest consumers of natural gas of the country, I doubt that they are playing so much with cracking these days.
All to say that a given barrel of crude oil makes pretty much a fix percent of diesel, and a fixed percent of premium gas.
This is why, (I do not know if this is still true) that at in a time Europe was using more Diesel than gas from the local production, ..got boat loads (crossing the Atlantic) of Diesel from USA !
So, the speculation that you can do in the price differences ..is simply driven by the market, ..and the usage of the “natural product mix” of what a barrel of crude oil can do. (Do not expect to have any of the oil company throwing away back in the dwell ..the left over unsold !)
Or, to be more “direct” : Yes, if “everyone” would buy a Diesel car (..like for example in France), then, the Diesel price will become much higher than the premium !
I can add another thing : we are buying these (premium or Diesel) by gallons, while the logic would be to buy it by weight, as the energy in these products is in direct relation to the mass of the product. Why I’m saying that ?
..Simply because Diesel is “heavier” than premium.
This should explain why a Diesel engine seems to use less gallon, for the same performance. I’m ready to bet that if we would buy these by weight, the motivation that Diesel burn “less”, ..would be gone !
And the last one, just for fun : to my taste (may be some of you would have a different one !) (re)Filling a Diesel car makes your hands be smelly. I just hate this odor.
(I had 2 (out of 5) Diesel Range Rover in the past, and would NEVER let my wife filling the car. Having a wife that have hands that smell Diesel is not something very desirable (imo) !!
OK, Audi has won Le Mans so many times with Diesel cars, in such ways that many “followers like that”, (kind of a known social language, right?), but, what is the real motivation beyond that ?
I think it is quite simple : The large oil companies simply drive the market, to have the best possible equivalent of usage, ..versus the production, in order to have the best possible price for these !
..Very logical.
..my two cents !
05-26-2014, 07:06 AM
#79
Burning Brakes
Just one note about refilling diesel...
My hands never get smelly. In every filling station in Europe, there are free to use disposable plastic gloves on a diesel pump and there's always a bin next to the pump to throw those gloves in, when you're finished refueling, so that they can get recycled.
My hands never get smelly. In every filling station in Europe, there are free to use disposable plastic gloves on a diesel pump and there's always a bin next to the pump to throw those gloves in, when you're finished refueling, so that they can get recycled.
05-26-2014, 10:41 PM
#81
A turbo gasser would would be sucking very heavily and requiring way more rpms to come anywhere close. It is a formidable machine on the higway or around city in traffic.....the best suv i've driven or owned no question.
Even if Porsche claims it is "the sportscar" in its class, it remains just an SUV. Diesel engines are so much nicer in an SUV than petrol engines. Yes, Macan Turbo will also have a lot of torque, just like the deisel and it will be very fast, but with a much higher fuel consumption and without any real benefit for daily use. Wanna drive inspired, get a 981 or a 991. Those are sportscars... An SUV is and remains utillity vehicle.
Suzy (via iOS app)
Suzy (via iOS app)
A diesel with less peak power does NOT have more "pulling power" than a gasoline engine. Power is power. The difference is that a typical diesel achieves its power at lower RPM. That matters if you are towing a heavy load AND care about fuel economy. If you really care only about fuel economy, then an engine start/stop function at red lights can realistically offset any fuel-sipping advantages that a low-RPM engine might offer.
... and in many North American markets, diesel is the more expensive fuel by far. Everyone has to do the math for their own driving circuit, but "pulling power" is not a trump card, its a fallacy spread by people who never owned a smooth modern transmission.
... and in many North American markets, diesel is the more expensive fuel by far. Everyone has to do the math for their own driving circuit, but "pulling power" is not a trump card, its a fallacy spread by people who never owned a smooth modern transmission.
05-27-2014, 11:13 AM
#82
Race Director
+1
Diesel still does not make sense to me in the US. It is more expensive now, the gasoline cars inch closer and closer to diesel in fuel economy. And once you add the costs of diesel, initial costs, the overpriced Adblue and other diesel specific maintenance services, I am not sure anyone comes out ahead. Even C02 emissions are higher and even Low Sulphur diesel releases particulate matter that gasoline does not. The only reason German companies are selling diesels in the US are to meet the CAFE standards which (wrongly) do not distinguish between gasoline and diesel. They also have more expertise in diesel vs Japanese and American companies and they are simply leveraging that expertise. Meeting those CAFE standards still does not mean the the diesel car is better for the environment somehow.
Diesel still does not make sense to me in the US. It is more expensive now, the gasoline cars inch closer and closer to diesel in fuel economy. And once you add the costs of diesel, initial costs, the overpriced Adblue and other diesel specific maintenance services, I am not sure anyone comes out ahead. Even C02 emissions are higher and even Low Sulphur diesel releases particulate matter that gasoline does not. The only reason German companies are selling diesels in the US are to meet the CAFE standards which (wrongly) do not distinguish between gasoline and diesel. They also have more expertise in diesel vs Japanese and American companies and they are simply leveraging that expertise. Meeting those CAFE standards still does not mean the the diesel car is better for the environment somehow.
05-27-2014, 11:43 AM
#83
In Chicago, diesel is less in summer and more in winter...actually diesel pricing is relatively flat year-round here. Gasoline has big pricing swings.
AdBlue is cheap! Even if you buy from a dealer, a 2.5 gallon jug is about $12. Easy to add it. I have to add every 7-8k and actually top off until my next service appt. Can't stock up in the stuff because it has a shelf life of about 9-12 months but I keep some handy.
Nothing like getting fuel every 550 miles or so. It becomes an event instead of a chore.
AdBlue is cheap! Even if you buy from a dealer, a 2.5 gallon jug is about $12. Easy to add it. I have to add every 7-8k and actually top off until my next service appt. Can't stock up in the stuff because it has a shelf life of about 9-12 months but I keep some handy.
Nothing like getting fuel every 550 miles or so. It becomes an event instead of a chore.
05-27-2014, 11:55 AM
#84
Haven't made it all the way through this thread yet but in my area (Nashville) diesel is cheaper than premium (and Porsche engines require premium) and from the mileage numbers I'm reading from Cayenne diesel owners the diesel makes more sense. How much does Adblue cost? how much do you wind up using in 5k miles? From my understanding Adblue adds less than the cost of 1 qt. of oil to the equation. Am I wrong here?
For diesel you will buy 469 gallons, For gas you will buy 652 gallons, a difference of 183 gallons a year at lets say $4 a gallon.. you save $732 in fuel per year. Of course we are being generous here and assume that the Diesel will only ever be driven at it's optimum on the highway..
Out of your $732 savings you will have to do 3 oil changes a year for diesel vs 1.5 on an average for gas. I am not sure what the oil change cost for the Macan is at a Porsche dealer but I would guess around 250-300.( I pay 400 for my 991), so 3 oil changes @ 275 is $825 vs for gas it's 412.50, thats a saving of 412.50. Even if you never ever pay the inflated dealer prices of $100s of dollars to top your adblue tank. Even if you never buy the $30/gallon easy fill bottles and buy the adblue in bulk at $5-6 a gallon and fill it with whatever, you are looking at approx $100 in adblue over the year. Keep in mind if you don't mess with this yourself, it may be over $500 at the dealer. So, giving all advantage to diesel.. ie: same cost fuel, highway only miles, same purchase price as gas macan you are giving yourself a cost advantage of approx $225 a year.
This is before the added risk factors of adblue system repairs and the Bosch Diesel fuel pumps blowing up due to "allegedly" substandard quality of US diesel in places, water in diesel tanks, using stabilizers for diesel fuel, etc, etc. etc..
On the torque equation of diesel.. for the macan you have 428 @ 1350 rpm which completely takes a nosedive at under 3000 rpm. So, you have no torque to play with if you really want to have fun with your Porsche.. but I agree, it's great for commuting.
On the 3.0 gas engine the torque is 340 @ 1450 and continues at the level until 5K (I think) and then the downward slope is much gentler. The Macan S is not lacking in any way on torque and revving a short stroke Porsche engine is sheer joy.
So, I simply voiced loudly the question.. Does the Macan Diesel really make sense? Even if nothing goes wrong with your diesel any more than a gas Macan... is saving $225 a year at its very best important to a Porsche Macan customer? Maybe one should get 19s instead of 20s for better fuel economy and cheaper tires/less wear if $225 is really important. Maybe it does to some or I am missing some other affection for diesel engines and certainly is your choice to make. It does not make any sense to me, personally.
Last edited by rpilot; 05-27-2014 at 12:13 PM.
05-27-2014, 12:19 PM
#85
AdBlue does not cost $100/year. It is included with your service. It does cost pennies when you are prompted to add urea, which depends on several factors.
If you want to 'race' your Macan then you are right, the torque is gone at 3000rpm. But if you want to pass on the highway or maneuver on streets, the low-end torque is great.
Most who will buy the Macan will not be doing it to race just as most are not penny-pinching when it comes to analyzing the 'dollars and sense' of any P-ride. If that's the case go elsewhere.
The Cayenne diesel has been the top selling Cayenne at my dealer (top dealer in Midwest) since it debuted here two years back. No fluke with that stat.
Porsche just wants to sell more vehicles to a wider audience.
If you want to 'race' your Macan then you are right, the torque is gone at 3000rpm. But if you want to pass on the highway or maneuver on streets, the low-end torque is great.
Most who will buy the Macan will not be doing it to race just as most are not penny-pinching when it comes to analyzing the 'dollars and sense' of any P-ride. If that's the case go elsewhere.
The Cayenne diesel has been the top selling Cayenne at my dealer (top dealer in Midwest) since it debuted here two years back. No fluke with that stat.
Porsche just wants to sell more vehicles to a wider audience.
05-27-2014, 12:34 PM
#86
Race Director
Bill... Fair enough.. perhaps it makes sense for you in your area. Diesel overall is more expensive than premium nationwide and you can use the average price of US gas & US premium gas vs US diesel as an indicator. Regardless, for purposes of an easy comparison, lets assume premium & diesel are the same price and use some average numbers. Diesel shines in the mpg dept in the highway so lets use that as a metric. Lets give every advantage possible to diesel and assume Porsche is going to price the diesel macan with the same equipment level exactly the same as the S 3.0... lets assume the highway fuel economy will be 32 for the Macan Diesel vs 23 for the Macan S. Let's assume 15,000 miles a year for the average person...
For diesel you will buy 469 gallons, For gas you will buy 652 gallons, a difference of 183 gallons a year at lets say $4 a gallon.. you save $732 in fuel per year. Of course we are being generous here and assume that the Diesel will only ever be driven at it's optimum on the highway..
Out of your $732 savings you will have to do 3 oil changes a year for diesel vs 1.5 on an average for gas. I am not sure what the oil change cost for the Macan is at a Porsche dealer but I would guess around 250-300.( I pay 400 for my 991), so 3 oil changes @ 275 is $825 vs for gas it's 412.50, thats a saving of 412.50. Even if you never ever pay the inflated dealer prices of $100s of dollars to top your adblue tank. Even if you never buy the $30/gallon easy fill bottles and buy the adblue in bulk at $5-6 a gallon and fill it with whatever, you are looking at approx $100 in adblue over the year. Keep in mind if you don't mess with this yourself, it may be over $500 at the dealer. So, giving all advantage to diesel.. ie: same cost fuel, highway only miles, same purchase price as gas macan you are giving yourself a cost advantage of approx $225 a year.
This is before the added risk factors of adblue system repairs and the Bosch Diesel fuel pumps blowing up due to "allegedly" substandard quality of US diesel in places, water in diesel tanks, using stabilizers for diesel fuel, etc, etc. etc..
On the torque equation of diesel.. for the macan you have 428 @ 1350 rpm which completely takes a nosedive at under 3000 rpm. So, you have no torque to play with if you really want to have fun with your Porsche.. but I agree, it's great for commuting.
On the 3.0 gas engine the torque is 340 @ 1450 and continues at the level until 5K (I think) and then the downward slope is much gentler. The Macan S is not lacking in any way on torque and revving a short stroke Porsche engine is sheer joy.
So, I simply voiced loudly the question.. Does the Macan Diesel really make sense? Even if nothing goes wrong with your diesel any more than a gas Macan... is saving $225 a year at its very best important to a Porsche Macan customer? Maybe one should get 19s instead of 20s for better fuel economy and cheaper tires/less wear if $225 is really important. Maybe it does to some or I am missing some other affection for diesel engines and certainly is your choice to make. It does not make any sense to me, personally.
For diesel you will buy 469 gallons, For gas you will buy 652 gallons, a difference of 183 gallons a year at lets say $4 a gallon.. you save $732 in fuel per year. Of course we are being generous here and assume that the Diesel will only ever be driven at it's optimum on the highway..
Out of your $732 savings you will have to do 3 oil changes a year for diesel vs 1.5 on an average for gas. I am not sure what the oil change cost for the Macan is at a Porsche dealer but I would guess around 250-300.( I pay 400 for my 991), so 3 oil changes @ 275 is $825 vs for gas it's 412.50, thats a saving of 412.50. Even if you never ever pay the inflated dealer prices of $100s of dollars to top your adblue tank. Even if you never buy the $30/gallon easy fill bottles and buy the adblue in bulk at $5-6 a gallon and fill it with whatever, you are looking at approx $100 in adblue over the year. Keep in mind if you don't mess with this yourself, it may be over $500 at the dealer. So, giving all advantage to diesel.. ie: same cost fuel, highway only miles, same purchase price as gas macan you are giving yourself a cost advantage of approx $225 a year.
This is before the added risk factors of adblue system repairs and the Bosch Diesel fuel pumps blowing up due to "allegedly" substandard quality of US diesel in places, water in diesel tanks, using stabilizers for diesel fuel, etc, etc. etc..
On the torque equation of diesel.. for the macan you have 428 @ 1350 rpm which completely takes a nosedive at under 3000 rpm. So, you have no torque to play with if you really want to have fun with your Porsche.. but I agree, it's great for commuting.
On the 3.0 gas engine the torque is 340 @ 1450 and continues at the level until 5K (I think) and then the downward slope is much gentler. The Macan S is not lacking in any way on torque and revving a short stroke Porsche engine is sheer joy.
So, I simply voiced loudly the question.. Does the Macan Diesel really make sense? Even if nothing goes wrong with your diesel any more than a gas Macan... is saving $225 a year at its very best important to a Porsche Macan customer? Maybe one should get 19s instead of 20s for better fuel economy and cheaper tires/less wear if $225 is really important. Maybe it does to some or I am missing some other affection for diesel engines and certainly is your choice to make. It does not make any sense to me, personally.
Anyhow, factoring dealer oil change costs is next to a non-issue for me. But, in the same context is the cost of tuneup/sparkplug service on the gas engines (have you priced this on a Porsche? 
Do the diesel's have any similar maintenance requirements? I don't know.
For diesel you will buy 469 gallons, For gas you will buy 652 gallons, a difference of 183 gallons a year at lets say $4 a gallon.. you save $732 in fuel per year. Of course we are being generous here and assume that the Diesel will only ever be driven at it's optimum on the highway..
As for your torque numbers, I would really like to see a chart on them. I would like to see your definition of "which completely takes a nosedive at under 3000 rpm" means.
05-27-2014, 02:48 PM
#87
Also I was comparing highway - to - highway fuel economy, not what you actually get. Of course you get 16 on your day to day in your cayenne.. you may get 18-19 average with your gas and 25 in traffic with your diesel. Regardless, you can adjust the numbers yourself to whatever makes sense for you.
You can do all the oil changes yourself, but it does not mean there is not an inherent / oppurtunity cost to that . Regardless, I have never stated that the diesel Macan does not make sense. Au contraire if you read everything in this thread. The only reason I got into this debate was because of the premise here that "diesels are the best choice for most Americans" assertion. Also, if you read some of my previous posts, previously I agreed that in the Cayenne the diesel made sense comparing it to the wholly underpowered Cayenne Base.
Enjoy your Diesel Macans when you get them. With that I am out of this thread, permanently.
Last edited by rpilot; 05-27-2014 at 07:38 PM.
05-27-2014, 09:48 PM
#88
Actually the problem is that the greatest advantage of the Diesel over the S is not on the Highway but in urban driving because of the low range torque. The paradox is that high mileage drivers are putting in predominantly highway miles.
Per Porsche:
Macan Diesel is rated at
Urban: 6.8L/KM
Highway: 5.8L/KM
Macan S is rated at
Urban: 11.45L/KM
Highway: 7.45L/KM
The Diesel Advantage:
Urban:68.3%
Highway:28.4%
The problem for someone like me who puts a schit load of miles on (25K+) is that probably a good 80% have been highway miles and the advantage(37.5%) is not as good as I was hoping for.
The advantage of the diesel low end torque is especially helpful the heavier the vehicle is. Or in the case of towing. The popularity with the Cayenne diesel is not surprising because of it's weight and while the Macan is still heavy, it's not nearly as much of an issue.
So a couple things. The reviews of the Macan S Diesel have been very positive. The Macan is lighter than the Q5 and Porsche reportedly worked its magic on their version of the diesel and the responsiveness has been well received.
It's true that the TDI has very recent durability issues with the components that can be very costly to repair, but there have been improved revisions AND this is put together by Porsche so something to be said for that.
At the same time isn't it largely regarded that the Porsche 911 engine is the most bullet proof engine ever made? So I think some weight needs to be given to Porsche engine building prowess.
I think it's been a very constructive discussion. To make the right decisions you got to go deep.
I need to see some real world S highway numbers.
Per Porsche:
Macan Diesel is rated at
Urban: 6.8L/KM
Highway: 5.8L/KM
Macan S is rated at
Urban: 11.45L/KM
Highway: 7.45L/KM
The Diesel Advantage:
Urban:68.3%
Highway:28.4%
The problem for someone like me who puts a schit load of miles on (25K+) is that probably a good 80% have been highway miles and the advantage(37.5%) is not as good as I was hoping for.
The advantage of the diesel low end torque is especially helpful the heavier the vehicle is. Or in the case of towing. The popularity with the Cayenne diesel is not surprising because of it's weight and while the Macan is still heavy, it's not nearly as much of an issue.
So a couple things. The reviews of the Macan S Diesel have been very positive. The Macan is lighter than the Q5 and Porsche reportedly worked its magic on their version of the diesel and the responsiveness has been well received.
It's true that the TDI has very recent durability issues with the components that can be very costly to repair, but there have been improved revisions AND this is put together by Porsche so something to be said for that.
At the same time isn't it largely regarded that the Porsche 911 engine is the most bullet proof engine ever made? So I think some weight needs to be given to Porsche engine building prowess.
I think it's been a very constructive discussion. To make the right decisions you got to go deep.
I need to see some real world S highway numbers.
05-28-2014, 05:42 AM
#89
Burning Brakes
You should at least add 20-25% for the petrol engine and 10-15% for the diesel engine to those fuel economy figures. These are EU figures and they're never realistic.
05-28-2014, 07:47 AM
#90
I would take very little notice of Porsche's official petrol fuel consumption figures. I laugh when I see the massive upshift on my consumption gauge in the TTS which is supposed to be more fuel efficient than the outgoing 997tt..LOL! God knows where they they plucked those figures from and I foresee the same happening with the Macan V6 turbo around town and it will be shifting a lot more weight. My money is it will drink like a fish....a very thirsty one at that. On the other hand i've seen the diesel consumption jump up around city by a few liters per 100 to say 12 per the 100 but in the same car with a petrol engine in the same situations takes nothing to see 21/22+ litres the 100. No comparison. And on a trip its the same again. The diesel will way outshine any petrol on the economy.