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I'm reading that and other articles differently, in that racing is exempt;
"Congress never intended for race cars to be subject to the Clean Air Act," the bill read. "The RPM Act would simply confirm that race cars are exempt from EPA regulation via the Clean Air Act."
I think you're right, and felt the EPA reach on that one was probably wrong even if it is right that it technically has the law on its side. But it's wholly irrelevant to this discussion because we are not talking about GT4 Clubsports. We are talking about GT4 street cars, which are not race cars.
Originally Posted by d00d
Personally there are no downsides to an occasionally driven catalyst free GT4, the additional emissions are more than offset by my daily carbon free commute across the house from kitchen to office space.
Uh, there are definitely downsides every time you turn the ignition key. Also, why undo a good gain you've brought to the world? Isn't "I do something good, so it's okay for me to do something bad" faulty logic? (Like most humans, I employ that faulty logic from time to time...and occasionally get called on it.)
Originally Posted by d00d
Upsides are no early catalyst replacement due to track vibration and heat, and maximum HP increase for a header replacement.
Okay, finally some upsides. Can you prove that early catalyst replacement due to vibration and heat is really a thing you'll face with your GT4? If so, I'm all ears and may learn something. However, isn't there a header with race cats out there? I like the sound of "maximum HP increase for a header replacement," but not when I step back and look at what that maximum HP increase might be over a set of sport headers with cats. Heck, you might LOSE hp over the stock headers with cats. That's exactly what happened when a really good welder made beautiful new headers for a 986 2.5 after laughing at the funny shapes of the stock headers. His bosses stopped laughing when the setup lost a LOT of HP and torque on the dyno over there at Sears Point, and never offered them for sale. They sure were pretty, though. Point is, Porsche may be hampered in some ways, but it isn't easy to beat its capabilities unless you have serious resources.
Originally Posted by d00d
I suspect that DMS's upcoming catalyst system will be a bolt on to the catalyst free system, replacing part of the muffler, and may even be quick connect (hoping) for more easy track day swap out.
That would be interesting, but packaging might argue against that—and "might" is a lot to hang your hat on, financially speaking. I think the cats would have to go near the engine (as part of the headers?) or mufflers (as part of the mufflers?) due to the driveshafts. So why not just get one of the really good headers out there with cats and have about the same power (maybe more?). Sounds like DMS is making those. Maybe they'll be a bit more money, but well worth the wait.
Pete, as you can see, we at Dundon have thus far remained quiet on the topic of your concerns, largely because we didn’t want to come off as being defensive. However, since we fully understand (and appreciate) your concerns we felt a response might be helpful in your processing of this issue, since you asked in post #261, “I am open to learn more, and am genuinely curious: What upsides are drawing you to this product given its downsides?”
Earlier this year we were approached by an IMSA race team to develop a tuned length, race header system for their GT4 Clubsport. And while the Clubsport may come from the factory with catalysts, the IMSA race regulations allow cars to run without them … and thus they do … all of them. So we went to work.
Through our R&D (and soon-to-be patent pending GT4 header system) we have been able to produce a ground-breaking race header that, by simply bolting onto a GT4 race car, will add over 40+ wheel horsepower as well as 50 lb/ft of mid-range torque. As you can imagine, this is not an insignificant amount for a race team pitted against the likes of the V8 Ford Mustang GT350 R. Our plan and intent, both then as well as now, is that this non-catted system would only go on GT4s dedicated to the track environment. As a matter of fact, when individuals buy our system, they are informed that this system is for race and offroad use only. And there are quite a few GT4s that will only see track time, never to be driven on the street.
It is extremely important to us that you understand the history of our company because in post #257 you say, “And here we have a vendor—good guys or not, I do not know, have no skin in the game, and wish them and their shop zero ill—offering a blatantly illegal product, knowingly or not …”
Clearly this is NOT an illegal product. The EPA has fully exempted cars used for racing and dedicated track cars from the need to run catalysts. This is our intended clientele. This is the group we are making these systems for. We are marketing and selling these as race headers and race headers only. But here’s the good news. We are currently in the final stages of development for a fully compatible catalyst that will bolt up to our race headers. This was our plan from the beginning with these parts and this is what we will offer to those who want more power for their street car. From here forward, we intend to develop all of our catalyzed systems before our race systems. However, in this case, since we had a direct request to build a race header for a prominent race team, we created and offered that system first … and since we had that product created, we wanted to offer that to others in the track community.
The issue of street cars using race car parts is far larger than this group buy thread. We encourage you to start a thread for all owners concerned and all makers of aftermarket parts that effect emissions to see and be a part of, if they choose. These parts include race headers, sport headers, exhausts, air filters, plenums, throttle bodies, tunes, gearing and other mods that may alter the fuel efficiency and volumetric efficiency of the engine. To keep the discussion centered in this thread when many other substantially larger vendors offer race headers and other catless systems could potentially feel biased against the new little guy.
I sincerely hope this helps answer some of your questions and concerns as well as your puzzlement as to why individuals would want to use our headers in their racing endeavors.
I also want you to know that if you would like to have any further discussion on this topic you are welcome to call me directly on my cell at 302 five 21 23 zero 7. I would be happy to entertain any further questions you may have.
On a different note, we want to send you our sincere congratulations on your new publication “000 Magazine.” It looks fabulous! In fact, both my business partner and I have signed up for a subscription and are eagerly awaiting the first issue. Way to go! Thank you for offering our community that kind of first-rate publication. Please let us know if we can assist you in that effort in any way.
Pete, as you can see, we at Dundon have thus far remained quiet on the topic of your concerns, largely because we didn’t want to come off as being defensive. However, since we fully understand (and appreciate) your concerns we felt a response might be helpful in your processing of this issue, since you asked in post #261, “I am open to learn more, and am genuinely curious: What upsides are drawing you to this product given its downsides?”
Right on, and thanks for speaking to this. I mistook your company's silence—plus posts from forum users stating they would worry about emissions tests in their street cars when they had to—as indicative of a lack of concern for the environment.
Originally Posted by Jamie@dundonmotorsports
Earlier this year we were approached by an IMSA race team to develop a tuned length, race header system for their GT4 Clubsport. And while the Clubsport may come from the factory with catalysts, the IMSA race regulations allow cars to run without them … and thus they do … all of them. So we went to work.
Got it, and understood. Kind of a bummer about IMSA's stance, but that is what it is, and no team is going to leave horses on the table.
Originally Posted by Jamie@dundonmotorsports
Through our R&D (and soon-to-be patent pending GT4 header system) we have been able to produce a ground-breaking race header that, by simply bolting onto a GT4 race car, will add over 40+ wheel horsepower as well as 50 lb/ft of mid-range torque.
Those are some serious gains—rather amazing, in fact. I would be curious to see if there is a way to back those up in an objective third-party test. Lap times would be a good, if very imperfect, substitute.
Originally Posted by Jamie@dundonmotorsports
As you can imagine, this is not an insignificant amount for a race team pitted against the likes of the V8 Ford Mustang GT350 R. Our plan and intent, both then as well as now, is that this non-catted system would only go on GT4s dedicated to the track environment.
Got it, and I don't really have much of a problem with that (believe it or not given my fervor in this thread...I didn't know I had so much Eagle Scout left in me )
Originally Posted by Jamie@dundonmotorsports
As a matter of fact, when individuals buy our system, they are informed that this system is for race and offroad use only. And there are quite a few GT4s that will only see track time, never to be driven on the street.
The problem is you've got customers openly stating they plan to circumvent the law and use your cat-less headers on the street, in street cars...stating how it's not a bad thing in light of their walking to work or that they'll worry about CA emissions tests in 5-6 years when they have to, or will start dirty and bolt up cats later, etc. That's probably what I object to more than anything else.
It's really good to hear your stance on this.
Originally Posted by Jamie@dundonmotorsports
It is extremely important to us that you understand the history of our company because in post #257 you say, “And here we have a vendor—good guys or not, I do not know, have no skin in the game, and wish them and their shop zero ill—offering a blatantly illegal product, knowingly or not …”
Clearly this is NOT an illegal product. The EPA has fully exempted cars used for racing and dedicated track cars from the need to run catalysts. This is our intended clientele. This is the group we are making these systems for. We are marketing and selling these as race headers and race headers only.
All right, I stand corrected—so long as the GT4s these are going into never turn a wheel on the street. I have to admit I am a bit dubious on that point given some of the comments on this thread. Can you see why?
I know you ultimately can't control what people will do with your headers, but there are some here who are making it clear that they will use your product in an illegal way—which isn't good for your company. I suspect they are pretty easily identified on your part. Where does your company's responsibility and leadership come in on that?
FWIW, I always welcome new companies into this community, especially when they bring with them passion for the cars, technical prowess, new thinking, and integrity. Your comments go a long way with me. Thank you.
Originally Posted by Jamie@dundonmotorsports
But here’s the good news. We are currently in the final stages of development for a fully compatible catalyst that will bolt up to our race headers. This was our plan from the beginning with these parts and this is what we will offer to those who want more power for their street car. From here forward, we intend to develop all of our catalyzed systems before our race systems. However, in this case, since we had a direct request to build a race header for a prominent race team, we created and offered that system first … and since we had that product created, we wanted to offer that to others in the track community.
Right on re: the cats. Very good news. And I like the idea of quality American-made options alongside imported products. A lot.
Originally Posted by Jamie@dundonmotorsports
[FONT=Verdana]The issue of street cars using race car parts is far larger than this group buy thread.
For sure.
Originally Posted by Jamie@dundonmotorsports
We encourage you to start a thread for all owners concerned and all makers of aftermarket parts that effect emissions to see and be a part of, if they choose. These parts include race headers, sport headers, exhausts, air filters, plenums, throttle bodies, tunes, gearing and other mods that may alter the fuel efficiency and volumetric efficiency of the engine. To keep the discussion centered in this thread when many other substantially larger vendors offer race headers and other catless systems could potentially feel biased against the new little guy.
No intention to be biased against the little new guy (!). Just addressing what I viewed as a localized fire. I agree with you that it isn't the only hot spot. It just seemed to be by far the most blatant with customers stating their excitement over deleting one of—if not the—most important systems in improving air quality.
Given my frankly surprising and apparent zeal in this thread—and I can poke some fun at myself in that regard—yes, I could see how I might be tempted to start threads on this subject, but I'm not sure where to start. Every forum? Everywhere? Again, I think it's a matter of degree, and what bothered me here was the idea of Rennlisters dancing around cat-less headers on street cars as a cool upgrade. It isn't. I hear you on some of the other mods mentioned above, but none of them present the kind of threat to the environment that a cat-less GT4 does. As my thread on different gears for the GT4...I suspect it would actually improve fuel efficiency—I've noted the GT4 gets terrible gas mileage and has limited range, largely due to its remarkably wasteful sixth gear. If my GT4 proves to be a keeper, and new endeavors go okay, maybe I'll be the guinea pig on that one. We'll see.
Originally Posted by Jamie@dundonmotorsports
On a different note, we want to send you our sincere congratulations on your new publication “000 Magazine.” It looks fabulous! In fact, both my business partner and I have signed up for a subscription and are eagerly awaiting the first issue. Way to go! Thank you for offering our community that kind of first-rate publication. Please let us know if we can assist you in that effort in any way.
Thank you, you are welcome, and thank you kindly.
I just felt it was time to try and contribute something different in terms of Porsche media. Frankly, I feel like the new little guy when it comes to 000, and that made me pause a bit in being the tree-hugging crazy in this thread—but I decided my concern for the environment (in as much as we can do while enjoying our not-so-green hobby) as well as our hobby in a bigger picture outstripped my worries over whether I'd lose some customers among those who can't look past an opposing viewpoint. Sure would have been easier (or smarter?) to just be quiet, but I'm not sure I am easy or smart.
It's early days for 000 editorial direction, and it will evolve quite a bit from what people see in the "prototype" issue, but I will keep your kind offer in mind.
Those are some serious gains—rather amazing, in fact. I would be curious to see if there is a way to back those up in an objective third-party test. Lap times would be a good, if very imperfect, substitute.
Test and numbers/results would be great and I'm sure that BGBwould be interested in this as they all compete together ( I currently run their headers & exhaust). They told me that the otherleading vendor of headers in the U.S. also approached them about it and they saidthey would gladly provide a set of the Cargraphic manifolds to test. Fabspeed would do the same. I think that DeManMotorsport even volunteered to be the 3rd party since they have adyno in house and have already compared the 2 existing offerings that do have a price advantage and are race proven. Sometime is very hard for us end users to test and post results which at the end you can't compared due to many variables.
Very nice and respectful conversation with good arguments, congrats!
On a german board, this would have come to war after three posts
or so, I like the way you are respecting different positions.
Peter
This forum is truly unique.. lots of other "American" boards come to verbal blows very fast. Great vendors here, great participation.. everyone learns & benefits.
Definitely a nice thoughtful mature discussion. Just not the thread for it, IMHO. If I was interested in reading/participating in a discussion on the environmental impact of my choice of catted or catless downpipes, I would like to be able to choose a thread so titled. When I choose to peruse this thread, I'm interested in learning about the DMS downpipe GB with progress on the fabrication, performance and/or delivery of the product.
Definitely a nice thoughtful mature discussion. Just not the thread for it, IMHO. If I was interested in reading/participating in a discussion on the environmental impact of my choice of catted or catless downpipes, I would like to be able to choose a thread so titled. When I choose to peruse this thread, I'm interested in learning about the DMS downpipe GB with progress on the fabrication, performance and/or delivery of the product.
Sorry, but we don't get that choice on public forums. Just look at my GT4 gearing thread, lol. RL is the wild west, y'all. And I actually think the conversation is (usually) better for it, even if occasionally annoying!
Sorry, but we don't get that choice on public forums. Just look at my GT4 gearing thread, lol. RL is the wild west, y'all. And I actually think the conversation is (usually) better for it, even if occasionally annoying!
Latest updates on the Production Header Dyno Number with and without tune and vs competitive product.
Dundon Race vs Stock (+47whp at 7200RPM) Dundon Race vs Stock
+58lbft at 3800 RPM Dundon Race vs Stock
+35whp and +38lbft at 5000rpm Dundon Race vs Stock
12-07-2016, 08:55 PM
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