Hi Matt......makes complete sense. There's tracking the car and then there's really tracking the car. As you mentioned, these are street cars first with immense track capabilities when you look at them from the street side of things.


If you are the owner that take the car occasionally to the track but is mostly street driven I would assume the wear wont be significant. But if you are a racer taking the car to the track several full weekends in a month, doing full track + long sessions then you are asking the street car to cope with a lot of things and hence the problem we are discussing.


People need to be clear when you are crossing the line tilting the balance of the GT4 into a full track car...and of course the dealer and PAG won't like that in terms of warranty. It's a gray area and the dealer plays an important part on this as they are the intermediary between the owner and Porsche....they will get paid for the warranty labor but how inclined they are to do that depends on a lot of things.

 

I've never owned a Porsche under warranty, but every new car brand I've ever had used a regional warranty rep from the mothership who makes the final call. In my experience dealers can have an influience but they don't make the call. Is this the same with PCNA?

 

That's correct....from my experience working for other brands, they rely 90% of the time on the info provided by the dealer (documents, photos, etc.) since they can't be on the road handling the wave of warranty claims they get every day. If it's a very rare claim / first ones they may pop at the dealer to inspect the car and parts. This is the area where a dealer might help you, and tilt the balance in your favor when requesting a warranty service/claim....not approving but helping the customer if they are that type. This would be my first PAG product so don't know the procedures to submit and get approval of warranty claims but most of the industry follow the same one.

 

I appreciate the thought out response and it helps puts some of my personal concerns at ease...well slightly.

1.) I have zero plans to run anything stickier than Cup2s. To me the GT4 is a track toy and not a track car, race car, TT car, or etc... Hopefully this will help with diff life. I do plan on pushing the limits of the Cup2s though.

2.) Seems like PTV does not works in conjunction with ESC and TC. Basically I can disable the ESC/TC via the buttons near the shifter but PTV will still work regardless... Which in theory may help save the diff but at a cost of rotor, pad, and caliper life (I am okay with this).

3.) If I ever decide to go Ken Block crazy then upgrades due exist. However it is more involving on the Cayman versus a 911.

4.) Getting it replaced under warranty may or may not happen. The chances are higher if the car remains stock or "shows" little sign of on track abuse (hopefully they don't look at my tires lol).

5.) I am still wondering if semi annual or annual diff fluid changes would help with wear. Not to mention going with a stouter fluid. My track cars gets fresh trans and diff fluid every 6-12 months depending on use. Sounds like the GT4 may get a similar treatment.

 

When porsche has replaced tracked motors as long as it wasn't abused and stock, saying 100% cause you track the car they will not warranty without any real info currently feels a bit of misinformation being passed around. Unless there is a history of them refusing trans/diff replacement under warranty? Almost feel like instead of let's see what happens there are fires being started.

Also, wonder with the ptv due to the size of the rear brakes if we will have as much heat issues as previous gen caymans cooking calipers.

 

Let me put it a different way that you won't find so inflammatory. I have seen a number of instances where GT3 owners have been told there is nothing wrong with their LSD. This will probably be the same answer GT4 owners are given. If the owner pushes and the dealer starts putting labor into the car to investigate it, there's a good chance when they get inside and determine that there is still nothing wrong you will foot the bill for whatever work you made them do.

This is not some Henny Penny sky is falling thing. I know of maybe a dozen gt3s that have had catastrophic LSD failures. They aren't like a catastrophic engine failure which disabled the vehicle. When an LSD goes out it is from worn out clutches. So you claim a bad LSD to warranty. They go in, take it out of the gearbox. They inspect and measure it. Then they tell you that you wore out the clutches, just like you wore out your brake pads and main clutch. Wear item. Pay the cashier on your way out.

 

i'll add to Matt's feedback based on a 997GT3 owner who tracks their car.
the stock LSD is a piece of ****. i'm not that fast, and mine was thrashed after a dozen or so track days. Basically operating as an open diff, *** end all over the place on heavy braking and rear end slipping on heavy acceleration in tight corners.
Put a GT2 pro diff from guard in the car about 18mo ago and many, many track days later the car is rock solid on braking, back end stuck like glue.

And, FWIW, I'm not aware of any GT3 owners who got porsche to replace their LSD.

Add it to the list of wear components for tracked cars; tires, rotors, pads, brake fluid, lips, wheel bearings, control arms, etc, etc.

 

My prevoius experience was with tracking a 996 GT3 street car ordered from a local dealer. I had more concerns about the warranty with that car because some on Rennlist posted that they got no service on some items just because the car appeared to have been tracked. I feel more certain that will not be a threshold issue with the GT4 because the owner's manual expressly contemplates track events, and cautions that damage caused by the use of racing tires will not be covered. Sporting events alone is not an issue, and the track setup guidance and data logger is further evidence of that track use alone is not a problem.

From the manual: "The fitting of racing tires (e.g. slicks) for sporting events is not approved by Porsche. Very high cornering speeds can be achieved with racing tires. The resulting transverse acceleration values would jeopardise the adequate supply of oil to the engine.

Porsche therefore refuses to accept any warranty or liability for damage occurring as a result of noncompliance with this provision."

As it turned out, my dealer was VERY good about performing warranty repairs on the GT3 that were clearly track related. Kudos to them! Hope for the same success with the same dealer with the GT4.

 

Quoted myself because I read this now that I am at my computer and it's not really clear.

Out of the literally hundreds of GT3 LSDs we've replaced maybe a dozen destroyed the spider gears making the car undriveable. That's the exception, not the rule and why the engine replacement comparison does not work.

And to reiterate, since there are no service parts for these gearboxes once you have your "worn out" LSD out of the gearbox the dealer will give you 2 options:
1. Put it back in and pay them for the labor and materials.
2. Buy a new gearbox.

Of course, a savy owner would decide to buy my LSD at that point and not buy a new gearbox. But if you get in a situation where you think the LSD is done and they don't or they refuse to warranty it, if you stay with original factory parts in the car your only option will be to buy a gearbox.

Make more sense?

 

I am just picturing all these new GT4 owners getting into a lather now about their anemic oem LSD's. To be clear, if you are not running in one of the advanced run groups at DE events at least 5 times a year, you are unlikely to wear out the oem diff, or even notice that you've worn it out.

There are two reasons to buy a new LSD from Guard. First, they are built like a Swiss watch and they will last a long, long time even under harsh abuse. Second, they are set up to provide a meaningful increase in performance over the stock diff. The improvement is very noticeable both under heavy braking (the car is more stable) and powering out of corners (you can get more power down, and sooner, than with the oem LSD).

Bottom line: anyone driving at a high level who expects to do at least 5 track events/year will want an upgraded differential sooner or later.

 

So basically as a instructor, hooning it a few times a month, I am screwed lol.

I guess I will just cross this bridge when I get to it...

Hopefully regular fluid changes with better fluid, sticking with Cup2s, and PTV will help prolong the live

 

An instructor hooning it a few times a month should be changing his gearbox oil more than every 6-12 months. I tell my race customers 6 weekends. DE guys can probably probably double that. But doubling that makes 6 months a stretch...

Per Kman's comments, there is another piece her and that is performance. The GT3 guys have this thing they call the DE Cup, right Peter? Some of these guys are engaged in an outright arms race for DE times (look up member RSRanger). But for most, it's about getting maximum personal lap times without having the car being the limiting factor. Within that realm, my LSD will give you 2 seconds a lap over the stock one.

Pause

Repeat

Now your head isn't spinning anymore, I hope. Yes, I didn't stutter. No, I'm not filling you full of shyte to sell a product. I've been telling this to people for years. Guys like John at BGB work with me and my products because we deliver. A couple years back, when they were still running cars in Grand Am we were at Cota. John flew me in for the weekend and we started tuning Pumpelly's diff in the morning. By end of day, we found .7 seconds per lap. This was on my LSD, which had already been used to win championships for BGB with Empringham and for Rum Bum with Plumb and Longhi.

So, when you guys start getting into the dollars per second calculations, just don't overlook it. When compared to the stock OEM unit? Just ask the GT3 owners how much time I find for them? It will be equal or better on your cars.

 

A "couple" times a month=equals 2 days a month=~1 race weekend. My mistake for using a "few" versus a "couple" .

So 6 race weekends=6 months.

Doube that and you get 12 months. So based on your own post I am well within the limits.

My actual track car gets fresh trans/diff fluid every 6-12 months which also works out based on your own recommendation. Which is as I noted is dependant on use.

Needless to say I appreciate your input and will most likely apply my basic track car maintenance schedule to the GT4 (even though it won't be pushed quite as hard).

 

Are there any sensors that throw a CEL when an LSD is wearing out?

 

Yes it is - dealers can handle small stuff, but major warranty issues sit until Reg. Rep makes a visit and sees the car.