user1029

Sure you can go blasting through the track with blistering speed and the technological finesse of a GT3. Or you can enjoy the track in an analog setting of the GT4, masticating the track as you would a finely aged steak.

acey81

My CGTS is modded with the following:
PDK
PASM (with anti roll bars from the X73 package)
Cup 2 tires
Maxed out camber
Pagid R29 on all 4 corners
SRF brake fluid

I think within reason, these are the changes you could / should make for tracking a GTS. I think these changes would add up to a maximum of 3 seconds on a track like Hockenheim, giving the GT4 a 1,5 second advantage roughly. That is before you start tinkering with the setup of the GT4.

The GTS will probably be easier to live with, so although I agree that the GT4 is a bargain, the very same thing could be said of the GTS. I love my GTS, but ultimately the GT4 by all accounts is a more serious tool, even if the PDK does a good job of masking that fact.

Bardman

I don't mind, I have a confirmed delivery date of September, so I'm happy.

It does go to show though, together with your point below, that at some point I think Porsche will be forced to reconcile the 911 vs Cayman positioning. The game they are playing definitely has an expiration date.

Bardman

I was more talking about the general problem. I have a confirmed September delivery.

Macca

It won't happen. Not while Porsche have the 911 in competition. Maybe if they move their comp cars to a new platform (960?) there is a chance but that's a big maybe and a long way off...

Porsche are these day's trading on their past. The are part of something bigger and a economic jewel in the vAG group. The 911 is their icon for sports cars and it will remain so. The 911 sells in low volume these days and the Cayman even more so. However the 911 is still the cornerstone of their brand image. The GT4 is an anomaly in their product range. An experiment they were possibly forced to, to keep the core brand ambassadors - the enthusiasts - happy. It's proven successful beyond their expectations and put considerable pressure on their performance product hierarchy. The result I believe will play into the GT3s hands next generation. They will need to push hard to widen the gap again and may even be forced to re consider their PDK only strategy. This I imagine will work in favour of future 911 GT3 customers albeit it at likely an even more elevated price. The next GT3 will likely be quicker again and more emotive. All of which makes the current GT4 even more of a anomaly and a bargain.

It's a good situation for the customer. Assuming they can get one.

All IMO of course :-)

acey81

No, the GTS won't outrun the GT4 on the same tires, I think without some serious modifications the GTS will never outrun a GT4, but with a few simple mods it will come within 1,5 seconds of the GT4 (on the track).

Petevb

I'm not sure which track times you're referring to as fact. As far as I can see, however, the times we have support Röhrl's statement.

The data presented in this test shows that the GT4 and GT3 both gain an essentially identical 4.5 seconds vs their GTS counterparts. They have very similar upgrades- 45 hp, brakes, suspension, tires, etc. The GT3 has additional advantages in the form of rear wheel steering and PDK that the GT4 doesn't get. If the PDK was truly worth 2-3 seconds as you've claimed I'd expect that to be at least some advantage noticeable on the clock. There is none, lending credence to Walter's point that the advantage is is much smaller than you believe for a good driver.

This doesn't surprise me because I'm quite sure WR's time is based on more than opinion. Porsche has simulated lap times in excruciating detail for every one of their cars, making thousands of trade-offs to arrive at their desired conclusion- not too slow, not too fast. WR is going to be entirely aware of these results- after all it's his driving that's provided the basis for much of Porsche's simulations. He's the guy that first lapped the 'Ring in less than 8 minutes in a GT3, and he was largely responsible for tuning the car to achieve that time. He's the guy who did back to back Nürburgring comparison laps in the 993 RS and found power steering seconds quicker, which is why every GT3/ RS since has had it. I think his opinion is as close to "fact" as you're likely to come on the subject, though obviously other Porsche drivers or engineers will have access to the same info. And I've found him to shoot as straight as they come...

What's the source of your 2-3 second estimate?

Macca

Pete. Agree with your assessment entirely. Ill counter the RWS in the GT3 with the shorter wheelbase and better balance of the mid engine chassis in the GT4.

Ill wager also that for the bilk of those on this board PDK = accessibility much more than outright speed.

Walter is the ultimate Porsche test driver. A former professional who won world titles and has worked for Porsche on tuning their performance products for over 20 years. For Walter the difference between PDK and 6 speed manual is less than 0.5s on a track Like Hokem short. For the bulk of us its a lifetime. PDK has helped bring this gap down for the majority of weekend track drivers and give them a wee taste of what its like to be half the driver WR is!

acey81

I think you are right on the money here. The technical advantage in shift times ir probably somewhere around 0.5 on 2 minute track or so, however for most amateur drivers it is probably worth more. In full automode even a novice access 90% of the performance in a Cayman GTS. It is so well balanced, a tad underpowered and especially if Cup 2 tires, it just grips and grips and grips. The Gt4 will be a totally different proposition and will require more of the driver to be able to extract the full performance of the car.

GrantG

I think for drivers who are not experts with a manual gearbox, the Rev Match function allows them to narrow the gap considerably.

The regular PDK is not that big an advantage over a Manual (either with a very good driver or an average driver with Rev Match). The real advantage is with PDK-S, since the 7 gear ratios are much closer and all useable (regular PDK has just 6 useable ratios with one more tacked on for fuel mileage reasons).

I think a re-geared manual would be quicker than regular PDK.

Skeptikal12

I think this is a good result for the Cayman GT4, especially when you compare price.

PDK would negate some of the advantages of P-Zeros vs. MPSC2s and what you would have left with is a decent head to head. Sure, you could get a 7 speed GTS and put it on MPSCs to make the test more even but I think the result would be roughly the same. The 911s 7 speed gearing isn't much better than that of the GT4.

jumper5836

I agree

jumper5836

With the 997 the S PDK at the ring turned a 7:50 and the S manual version a 7:58
They also said that when testing the 991 GT3 that every shift the PDK would gain a car length on their manual test GT3. I think there really is a advantage point to it other then just being easier to drive to amateurs that can't shift.

bccars

Ive noticed in a beginners group on track, a base 991 c2 with PDK can hang with 997 GT3's. Beginners are fumbling around with the gearbox so much that they have subpar braking and miss their apexes much more than the beginner with his PDK !

vantage

The 991 platform is just easier to drive overall as well. You see a lot more over/understeer issues. But I agree. I could DEFINITELY go faster in the turns if I had a PDK gearbox in my track car. Trail braking and managing weight going into the turn is just so important in cars with not a lot of weight over the front wheels.