Reference lap data archive?
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Reference lap data archive?
I find I learn by example when looking at data, and I'd love to be able to compare my laps to a reference lap in a similar car at each track. I can't imagine I'm the only one, but while lots of people share videos it doesn't seem like anyone shares the actual data files. Even videos can be hard to find too -- there are many on Youtube but often very poorly named, so hard to find, and when I do find one for a given track, it often isn't clear what car someone is driving.
Is there any site where people share this kind of thing, and are people interested in it? I understand at a pro level, and maybe even upper level amateur, that data would be very proprietary -- but at the DE/TT level I'd think much less so. I for one would be happy to share.
The great thing is most of the software is freely available, so even if someone doesn't have a vbox or aim (or whatever) that doesn't preclude them from being able to view data (+video) from someone else that does.
Is there any site where people share this kind of thing, and are people interested in it? I understand at a pro level, and maybe even upper level amateur, that data would be very proprietary -- but at the DE/TT level I'd think much less so. I for one would be happy to share.
The great thing is most of the software is freely available, so even if someone doesn't have a vbox or aim (or whatever) that doesn't preclude them from being able to view data (+video) from someone else that does.
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I take a little different view in that I would rather share my experience in “what the data should look like,” in order for drivers to coach themselves. The best data “looks” the same, albeit with different peak values, usually influenced by power to weight ratio, stick and to a smaller degree (especially in GT cars) by aero.
Sure, you can hire Grant Maiman, Andrew Davis, Tom Long, Mike Skeen, Jade Buford, Stevan MacAleer, Corey Lewis, Thomas Merrill or Scott Heckert to drive the car and set a reference lap, then “bootstrap” your progress by looking where the greatest variance is (I can tell you where it likely is, before it even happens), but they have a much more intricate base of knowledge, much stronger belief system and supreme confidence that allows all of them to go slightly over the limit, along with a butt-gyro that allows them to recognize that before an incident occurs that reduces the car to a pile of smoking rubble.
Most DE and Club Racing drivers don’t have that, so they are reduced to taking incremental steps, or sometimes just surviving a big moment and realizing that the the car ACTUALLY HAS a lot more capability than they thought.
SO MANY DRIVERS do the SAME thing over and over, and expect the DATA to show a different result! In my mind, the best reason for data!
Bottom line is that it’s best to learn how to execute fundamental skills the BEST YOU CAN, then stitching it all together. That is what the pros do. This avoids the “emulation for emulation’s sake” and guides the driver towards the best possible outcome. With the minimum risk.
It’s sort of like video in looking at comparative data, you (as a variable) are comparing yourself against another variable (the other driver). That might work for a while, but it’s not a recipe for true success.
Great question, and looking forward to other’s answers.
Sure, you can hire Grant Maiman, Andrew Davis, Tom Long, Mike Skeen, Jade Buford, Stevan MacAleer, Corey Lewis, Thomas Merrill or Scott Heckert to drive the car and set a reference lap, then “bootstrap” your progress by looking where the greatest variance is (I can tell you where it likely is, before it even happens), but they have a much more intricate base of knowledge, much stronger belief system and supreme confidence that allows all of them to go slightly over the limit, along with a butt-gyro that allows them to recognize that before an incident occurs that reduces the car to a pile of smoking rubble.
Most DE and Club Racing drivers don’t have that, so they are reduced to taking incremental steps, or sometimes just surviving a big moment and realizing that the the car ACTUALLY HAS a lot more capability than they thought.
SO MANY DRIVERS do the SAME thing over and over, and expect the DATA to show a different result! In my mind, the best reason for data!
Bottom line is that it’s best to learn how to execute fundamental skills the BEST YOU CAN, then stitching it all together. That is what the pros do. This avoids the “emulation for emulation’s sake” and guides the driver towards the best possible outcome. With the minimum risk.
It’s sort of like video in looking at comparative data, you (as a variable) are comparing yourself against another variable (the other driver). That might work for a while, but it’s not a recipe for true success.
Great question, and looking forward to other’s answers.
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I think their is value in having data to compare to (it's the easy button), but like Peter said, to emulate it is not necessarily the only goal. You need to learn how to do all of the individual tasks of driving. Only then can you really have the skills to try and emulate a professionals skill set and lap. Think of learning each skill - braking, throttle application, steering wheel speed, etc - as a drill like you would do for any other sport. The game is the culmination of the practices.
You also find as you get closer the the "pro" the variances in driving style become more important. Someone will give up a tenth in one corner and be a tenth quicker somewhere else. At that point, it's not about copying someone, but honing your own skill set and putting it all together, sometimes in slightly different ways, to be faster. When you're dealing with drivers who are close to lap record times, it becomes much more nuanced that "someone else is faster here."
I think the benefit of data, more than just different people's comparison, is the recording of what you've done. Not as a tattle tale of mistakes or poor technique, but as an objective measure of what really happened. With that measure you're then able to quantify your efforts in a way that gives you a clear direction or insight into what to work on to achieve the next level of performance.
You also find as you get closer the the "pro" the variances in driving style become more important. Someone will give up a tenth in one corner and be a tenth quicker somewhere else. At that point, it's not about copying someone, but honing your own skill set and putting it all together, sometimes in slightly different ways, to be faster. When you're dealing with drivers who are close to lap record times, it becomes much more nuanced that "someone else is faster here."
I think the benefit of data, more than just different people's comparison, is the recording of what you've done. Not as a tattle tale of mistakes or poor technique, but as an objective measure of what really happened. With that measure you're then able to quantify your efforts in a way that gives you a clear direction or insight into what to work on to achieve the next level of performance.
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To answer the OPs question, I m not aware of any site where people share data. With respect to video, I subscribe to YouTube channels of my fellow racers but most people don't tend to post videos with data displayed for competitive reasons.
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It’s the engineering information and data itself that I might want to keep quiet about.
Speeds, g’s, throttle, brake and lap times though, all is fair.
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I understand and agree that having the data isn't an immediate magic solution, but my question stems from a personal experience a few weeks back at Willow Springs where I was fortunate to have a high level driver set a reference lap in my 997 Cup. I was then able to use Circuit Tools to compare (so easy! go vbox!) and see the spots where I was falling short.
His lap was at about 6/10th's (for him) so it was in reach for me -- admittedly, anything more aggressive would probably have triggered @Matt Romanowski 's "they do things different" point and it wouldn't have been attainable for me.
More than anything else it gave me confidence that the car could do it, and hence I could push harder than I previously had -- and I achieved a PB that I wouldn't have thought I could do. Basically, I had to get out of my own head and the reference lap helped do that more than the ride along itself did.
@dasing TrackLaps looks like what I was hoping for -- I now have some exploring to do.
His lap was at about 6/10th's (for him) so it was in reach for me -- admittedly, anything more aggressive would probably have triggered @Matt Romanowski 's "they do things different" point and it wouldn't have been attainable for me.
More than anything else it gave me confidence that the car could do it, and hence I could push harder than I previously had -- and I achieved a PB that I wouldn't have thought I could do. Basically, I had to get out of my own head and the reference lap helped do that more than the ride along itself did.
@dasing TrackLaps looks like what I was hoping for -- I now have some exploring to do.
Last edited by FastCarSlo; Nov 19, 2019 at 01:14 AM. Reason: Spelling
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The other great tool to look into for what you want is comparemylaps.com. Then you can compare any 2 videos and it doesn't matter if it has any data. You'll be able to measure the time difference and get good info out of it.
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I was then able to use Circuit Tools to compare (so easy! go vbox!) and see the spots where I was falling short.
His lap was at about 6/10th's (for him) so it was in reach for me -- admittedly, anything more aggressive would probably have triggered @Matt Romanowski 's "they do things different" point and it wouldn't have been attainable for me.
More than anything else it gave me confidence that the car could do it, and hence I could push harder than I previously had -- and I achieved a PB that I wouldn't have thought I could do.
His lap was at about 6/10th's (for him) so it was in reach for me -- admittedly, anything more aggressive would probably have triggered @Matt Romanowski 's "they do things different" point and it wouldn't have been attainable for me.
More than anything else it gave me confidence that the car could do it, and hence I could push harder than I previously had -- and I achieved a PB that I wouldn't have thought I could do.
They DON'T "do things different." They just do the same things BETTER and MORE CONSISTENTLY. They ALL put their pants on one leg at a time, for goodness sake. That "point" is a fallacy, pure and simple.
Agree with your methodology. Once you can SEE the difference, it's easier to DO the difference.
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You can take ANY 2 videos from any source (MoTeC, Cosworth, Vbox, AiM, YT, FB, Go Pro, and on and on) and compare them, with time deltas. It doesn't even need to be a whole lap. It doesn't need speed, time, etc. They all work the same. If you are only using it for AiM files or not at all, you're missing out.
They DON'T "do things different." They just do the same things BETTER and MORE CONSISTENTLY. They ALL put their pants on one leg at a time, for goodness sake. That "point" is a fallacy, pure and simple.
Agree with your methodology. Once you can SEE the difference, it's easier to DO the difference.
The content Dion has been putting out is top notch and from the top drivers and coaches out there right now. His premium membership at roughly $100 a year is almost a requirement for anyone in the sport. Access to his track guides, webinars from guys like Cameron Lawrence, Ricky Taylor (Roger was really watching him drive!), Memo Gidley, Mike Skeen, etc. is awesome. Plus his price point on a video analysis is great. It's something you can refer to through out the year and really work to improve with.
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A “reference lap” is usually done in a client’s car. That car usually has a data and video system in it. Sometimes, especially lately, more than one.
The client usually has a repository of previous runs available for performance comparison with the “reference lap” set by a “pro.”
Considering that the level of cars people want to do this with the most have one of the three systems that allow both video and data comparison, there’s no need for cross-platform comparison.
I’ve found that it’s best not to coach people to “drive different,” but instead to help them using video, along with data (the latter to verify and validate, which is why CML doesn’t do it for me), drive the best THEY can, since they are unlikely or unwilling to drive as often as it takes to accumulate the seat time, the motivation and develop the qualities pointed out in the video you reference.
Dion and his partner in that business are working hard, I’m sure he appreciates your endorsement. You might even get signed on, after that!
After being one of the three original coaches (besides Dion) for the first two years, I couldn’t make it work contractually and economically. I can’t spend that amount of time with the analysis that the fee would dictate, and am fortunate not to have to! I appreciate what he is doing and wish him the best.
I will continue my long-standing collaborative relationship with Ross Bentley. Ross and I are more compatible, for sure. May be our age and experience.
Like everything else, both Racer360 and Speed Secrets are just more good resources for drivers.
That’s been the greatest by-product, this sharing of knowledge, and not just limited to data and video, but instead how to achieve true, lasting performance gains.
The client usually has a repository of previous runs available for performance comparison with the “reference lap” set by a “pro.”
Considering that the level of cars people want to do this with the most have one of the three systems that allow both video and data comparison, there’s no need for cross-platform comparison.
I’ve found that it’s best not to coach people to “drive different,” but instead to help them using video, along with data (the latter to verify and validate, which is why CML doesn’t do it for me), drive the best THEY can, since they are unlikely or unwilling to drive as often as it takes to accumulate the seat time, the motivation and develop the qualities pointed out in the video you reference.
Dion and his partner in that business are working hard, I’m sure he appreciates your endorsement. You might even get signed on, after that!
After being one of the three original coaches (besides Dion) for the first two years, I couldn’t make it work contractually and economically. I can’t spend that amount of time with the analysis that the fee would dictate, and am fortunate not to have to! I appreciate what he is doing and wish him the best.I will continue my long-standing collaborative relationship with Ross Bentley. Ross and I are more compatible, for sure. May be our age and experience.
Like everything else, both Racer360 and Speed Secrets are just more good resources for drivers.
That’s been the greatest by-product, this sharing of knowledge, and not just limited to data and video, but instead how to achieve true, lasting performance gains.
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A “reference lap” is usually done in a client’s car. That car usually has a data and video system in it. Sometimes, especially lately, more than one.
The client usually has a repository of previous runs available for performance comparison with the “reference lap” set by a “pro.”
Considering that the level of cars people want to do this with the most have one of the three systems that allow both video and data comparison, there’s no need for cross-platform comparison.
I’ve found that it’s best not to coach people to “drive different,” but instead to help them using video, along with data (the latter to verify and validate, which is why CML doesn’t do it for me), drive the best THEY can, since they are unlikely or unwilling to drive as often as it takes to accumulate the seat time, the motivation and develop the qualities pointed out in the video you reference.
Dion and his partner in that business are working hard, I’m sure he appreciates your endorsement. You might even get signed on, after that! After being one of the three original coaches (besides Dion) for the first two years, I couldn’t make it work contractually and economically. I can’t spend that amount of time with the analysis that the fee would dictate, and am fortunate not to have to! I appreciate what he is doing and wish him the best.
I will continue my long-standing collaborative relationship with Ross Bentley. Ross and I are more compatible, for sure. May be our age and experience.
Like everything else, both Racer360 and Speed Secrets are just more good resources for drivers.
That’s been the greatest by-product, this sharing of knowledge, and not just limited to data and video, but instead how to achieve true, lasting performance gains.
The client usually has a repository of previous runs available for performance comparison with the “reference lap” set by a “pro.”
Considering that the level of cars people want to do this with the most have one of the three systems that allow both video and data comparison, there’s no need for cross-platform comparison.
I’ve found that it’s best not to coach people to “drive different,” but instead to help them using video, along with data (the latter to verify and validate, which is why CML doesn’t do it for me), drive the best THEY can, since they are unlikely or unwilling to drive as often as it takes to accumulate the seat time, the motivation and develop the qualities pointed out in the video you reference.
Dion and his partner in that business are working hard, I’m sure he appreciates your endorsement. You might even get signed on, after that!
After being one of the three original coaches (besides Dion) for the first two years, I couldn’t make it work contractually and economically. I can’t spend that amount of time with the analysis that the fee would dictate, and am fortunate not to have to! I appreciate what he is doing and wish him the best.I will continue my long-standing collaborative relationship with Ross Bentley. Ross and I are more compatible, for sure. May be our age and experience.
Like everything else, both Racer360 and Speed Secrets are just more good resources for drivers.
That’s been the greatest by-product, this sharing of knowledge, and not just limited to data and video, but instead how to achieve true, lasting performance gains.
Reference laps can come from all different places and IMHO really depend on the driver and situation. Is it easiest to have a higher level driver in the same car? Sure. Is that always possible? No. Plus, sometimes people just want a friend to be the reference. That is wear compare my laps really shines. If someone has a data system that allows side by side video comparison and has a reference lap for themselves to use, then great, use that software! For the others, it's a great, inexpensive, cross platform tool.
My point about racers360.com wasn't your tenure (was it 2 years? They only started in 2018 I thought...) or your videos with Ross. I'm not sure how you took that away.
Like you said, there are a great number of resources available to people. Ross and your videos are there, Racers360.com free and premium content, YT videos from people like James Colburn, books like Squiggly Lines, FB groups, and all the clubs and regions that are working data into their program. It's a great time for people to learn things and really get going. I know their is more in the works on a national level coming out too. Add in all the local coaches and it's a great time to learn and drive!
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You've missed the entire point of comparemylaps.com
You can take ANY 2 videos from any source (MoTeC, Cosworth, Vbox, AiM, YT, FB, Go Pro, and on and on) and compare them, with time deltas. It doesn't even need to be a whole lap. It doesn't need speed, time, etc. They all work the same. If you are only using it for AiM files or not at all, you're missing out.
Nelson and Dion show a mindset of a driver in this video that is critical to one of the major differences in fast and wicked fast drivers https://racers360.com/racecar-driver...-make-webinar/ I don't have time to watch the whole video again, but it's somewhere past 25 minutes in.
The content Dion has been putting out is top notch and from the top drivers and coaches out there right now. His premium membership at roughly $100 a year is almost a requirement for anyone in the sport. Access to his track guides, webinars from guys like Cameron Lawrence, Ricky Taylor (Roger was really watching him drive!), Memo Gidley, Mike Skeen, etc. is awesome. Plus his price point on a video analysis is great. It's something you can refer to through out the year and really work to improve with.
You can take ANY 2 videos from any source (MoTeC, Cosworth, Vbox, AiM, YT, FB, Go Pro, and on and on) and compare them, with time deltas. It doesn't even need to be a whole lap. It doesn't need speed, time, etc. They all work the same. If you are only using it for AiM files or not at all, you're missing out.
Nelson and Dion show a mindset of a driver in this video that is critical to one of the major differences in fast and wicked fast drivers https://racers360.com/racecar-driver...-make-webinar/ I don't have time to watch the whole video again, but it's somewhere past 25 minutes in.
The content Dion has been putting out is top notch and from the top drivers and coaches out there right now. His premium membership at roughly $100 a year is almost a requirement for anyone in the sport. Access to his track guides, webinars from guys like Cameron Lawrence, Ricky Taylor (Roger was really watching him drive!), Memo Gidley, Mike Skeen, etc. is awesome. Plus his price point on a video analysis is great. It's something you can refer to through out the year and really work to improve with.
I sent my best lap at Watkins Glen turned at SVRA in September 2019 to Racer360 to have Dion provide feedback. My best time was 5 sec faster than my previous best time, a combination of car setup and using tire temperatures to adjust shock settings and tire pressures and driver race lines. The outcome using tire temperatures is the cold starting temperature for each corner is different.
Dion sent me a visual critique, 20 minutes, suggesting where were the major improvement areas.
The cost including requesting Dion, a surcharge to specify the pro driver, is the same as 1/2 hr of pro coach riding in the shot gun seat.
My plan is to implement the improvement opportunities and then start looking at the detail data.
One caveat is the racing line is not the DE instructor drill master taught line. One should hire a pro coach to help you learn the racing line
Video critique showing your hands, track, brake and throttle positions is for quantum improvement opportuniities; detail data is for refinement.
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I hear alot of....he is teaching you the racing line vs the DE line
....i completely disagree with this term.
To me....There are 2 lines.
1. THE LINE - Fastest line around the track....it is slightly car dependent and definately adjusts with skill level......if your not at or just over the limit at entry your turn in will be different than someone who is.
2. Defensive line ....if your protecting against a pass
Instructors teach line adjustments based on their comfort in the car, their feel for the drivers skill, and their skill at teaching....so variations are very common.....try em all out and see what works...hopefully with data
Rant over.
Reference laps are nice to help identify what the car is capable of....driver meh.
Can help show driver skill aplication... does shorter harder brake work vs longer smoother etc.....