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Old 11-30-2010, 02:45 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by ClintonM3 View Post
Do you guys think that the prestige and rarity of a product can have influence in the judging of a concours? Afterall, it is the sizzle that sell the steak.

2 equally rare ... say Bugatti vintage race cars, both contenders, detailed to perfection. But one detailed in Zymol Royale or Vintage glaze. The other with just your "garden variety" P21s, or Pinnacle, etc....
2 Equally rare Bugatti's could not possibly have the exact same condition. Concours is about cleanliness, condition and in some instances originality. A judge way deduct a point if the paint on one of the cars doesn't look as good as the other but it wouldn't have anything to do with the wax, it would have everything to do with who painted it, who polished it and the final finish.

It is well known by most detailers that wax plays a very minor role in the overall appearance. It always cracks me up when someone at a concours asks me what wax I use. The eyes quickly glaze over when I start talking about polishing and all the steps involved. It really is an art and very few detailers IMHO are capable of or have the patience to achieve it.
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Old 11-30-2010, 08:03 PM
  #32  
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2 Equally rare Bugatti's could not possibly have the exact same condition. Concours is about cleanliness, condition and in some instances originality. A judge way deduct a point if the paint on one of the cars doesn't look as good as the other but it wouldn't have anything to do with the wax, it would have everything to do with who painted it, who polished it and the final finish.

It is well known by most detailers that wax plays a very minor role in the overall appearance. It always cracks me up when someone at a concours asks me what wax I use. The eyes quickly glaze over when I start talking about polishing and all the steps involved. It really is an art and very few detailers IMHO are capable of or have the patience to achieve it.
Thats good to know the judges won't buy into the hype. I haven't done a porsche event yet. But the BMW rice boy events I've done seems to be all about excess and bragging rights.
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Old 11-30-2010, 09:13 PM
  #33  
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To be quite honest, at Concours events such as Pebble Beach, Amelia Island, etc. most of the emphasis is on the car, not the shine. The judges are assessing the vehicle for authenticity, correct restoration, and historic significance. Now, the detail work is important, but it does take a back seat to the areas I mentioned earlier. I detailed the Pebble Beach Best of Show winner back in 2005, and it was with the owner of Zymol, and I can tell you we won because of how significant and amazing the car was. Our detailing was something to be very proud of, but we all knew it was because of the actual car. For those wondering, it was waxed with Zymol Royale and it did look out of this world.
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Old 11-30-2010, 09:46 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by ClintonM3 View Post
Thats good to know the judges won't buy into the hype. I haven't done a porsche event yet. But the BMW rice boy events I've done seems to be all about excess and bragging rights.
My experience is based upon Mercedes events, Porsche Events and a few mixed events that I judged in SoCal. I can't remember any instances were a judge said, "What wax did you use". The score sheets for Porsche are designed to focus on overall condition of a car and how it would have left the factory although modifications are acceptable if they are done to factory levels or better.

I admit none of the shows came close to Pebble Beach levels and I do agree that some of the shows do focus more on the significance of the car including previous owners, specific coach builders, quality of restoration and how close to the original etc. When I showed my car at the Fairfield Concours I noted that condition wasn't the determining factor based upon the cars that won.

Originally Posted by MoeMistry View Post
To be quite honest, at Concours events such as Pebble Beach, Amelia Island, etc. most of the emphasis is on the car, not the shine. The judges are assessing the vehicle for authenticity, correct restoration, and historic significance. Now, the detail work is important, but it does take a back seat to the areas I mentioned earlier. I detailed the Pebble Beach Best of Show winner back in 2005, and it was with the owner of Zymol, and I can tell you we won because of how significant and amazing the car was. Our detailing was something to be very proud of, but we all knew it was because of the actual car. For those wondering, it was waxed with Zymol Royale and it did look out of this world.
That must have been a great experience and an honor. I would love to see some pictures of the car if you can post them. Also what was involved in the detail? I've only seen a handful of Pebble Beach cars (not at Pebble Beach) and they were all restored to perfection. Did you have to perform any paint correction or was the detailing mainly focused on cleaning, waxing? Did you need to condition the leather and clean the engine?
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Old 12-01-2010, 12:33 AM
  #35  
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Moe, I too would love to see pics if available.
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Old 12-01-2010, 02:23 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by cab&coupe View Post
Moe, I too would love to see pics if available.
Here's the car:

http://glisteningperfection.com/port...php?modelid=12

As for the scope, it was fresh out of restoration so it was up to us to make her look her best. The restoration shop did an amazing job on everything, so no paint correction. The interior had a thorough cleaning, more for taking off hand prints and any scuffing. The exterior went through the usual hand polishing and waxing, undercarriage was detailed, engine was detailed, tires/wheels, etc. All-in-all, we spent about a half day between the two of us. It was an experience I'll never forget and it changed how I detail and care for cars forever. It truly was an honor and an experience of a lifetime to touch a piece of history. And for it to take Best of Show, it was an emotional experience for all those involved.
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Old 12-01-2010, 08:23 AM
  #37  
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That is truly a beautiful car and an amazing restoration. Moe, it is also very obvious that the detailing wax extensive, everything looks perfect.

I'm curious, when the judges come around to look at the car what is their procedure at an event like this? Do they also time the judging, have certain things they're looking for or are they doing a walk around and looking at the overall big picture? How do the judges know what is original and what isn't on a car this old with so few built?

Wow, very impressive Moe. Definitely would be a highlight for any car enthusiast.
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Old 12-01-2010, 09:03 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by MoeMistry View Post
To be quite honest, at Concours events such as Pebble Beach, Amelia Island, etc. most of the emphasis is on the car, not the shine. The judges are assessing the vehicle for authenticity, correct restoration, and historic significance. Now, the detail work is important, but it does take a back seat to the areas I mentioned earlier. I detailed the Pebble Beach Best of Show winner back in 2005, and it was with the owner of Zymol, and I can tell you we won because of how significant and amazing the car was. Our detailing was something to be very proud of, but we all knew it was because of the actual car. For those wondering, it was waxed with Zymol Royale and it did look out of this world.
Agreed; but most owners who own and show Concours d’élégance vehicle also take pride in how they look and would naturally want their paint etc to be protected against the elements.

I know when I used to enter cars I’d always present them to look the best I could, did it win BOS because of its shine, doubtful but I think it had something to do with the overall marks, I know later on as a judge I took it into account when awarding a final score
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Old 12-01-2010, 10:24 AM
  #39  
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Wow thanks for sharing Moe
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Old 12-01-2010, 10:59 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Marine Blue View Post
That is truly a beautiful car and an amazing restoration. Moe, it is also very obvious that the detailing wax extensive, everything looks perfect.

I'm curious, when the judges come around to look at the car what is their procedure at an event like this? Do they also time the judging, have certain things they're looking for or are they doing a walk around and looking at the overall big picture? How do the judges know what is original and what isn't on a car this old with so few built?

Wow, very impressive Moe. Definitely would be a highlight for any car enthusiast.
The judging that goes on at this caliber of Concours is slightly different than what we have at PCA events. The judges take their time, each is a specialist in that car, automobile manufacturer, or that era. These guys are often restorers or collectors that know the car like the back of their hand. They'll tell you if a screw is not original to that car.

As for originality, the owner and restorer will spend years researching the car, finding schematics, old photos, other examples if available, etc. to make sure the car they're working on is back to original as possible. If a part doesn't exist, they simply make it to the original spec. At this level of the game, nothing is left without scrutinizing the most minor detail.

If you ever get a chance, watch the documentary made of Ralph Lauren's collection - Speed, Style, and Beauty. One of the best restorers in the world, Paul Russell, is working on Ralph's 1938 Alfa Romeo 8C 2900 Mille Miglia that happened to be competing with us that year. It was a few rows down from me and it was gorgeous. But I knew WE would win. The Delage is a sight to be seen and just had this aura of a winner. It was a roller coaster though
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Old 12-01-2010, 11:03 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by TOGWT View Post
Agreed; but most owners who own and show Concours d’élégance vehicle also take pride in how they look and would naturally want their paint etc to be protected against the elements.

I know when I used to enter cars I’d always present them to look the best I could, did it win BOS because of its shine, doubtful but I think it had something to do with the overall marks, I know later on as a judge I took it into account when awarding a final score
It depends. Most owner at Pebble were more concerned about the car, not the detail. You should see some of the cars and their condition. You guys would have fainted. Swirl city.... Each year I go, I try and see how many cars would pass leaving our doors at the studio. Let's just say I could count on both hands out of all the cars that were there.

But here's why....you get points docked down if it's overly restored. So, if it looks too perfect, that's not a good thing. At least that was what I was told when I asked some owners and a few judges.
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Old 12-01-2010, 02:33 PM
  #42  
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Aspects of subjective judging?
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Old 12-02-2010, 08:18 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by cab&coupe View Post
Aspects of subjective judging?
We are supposed to be entirely neutral as judges, but then what would a detailer notice most?

Moe- that is a beautiful car and an amazing restoration. Thank you for shareing
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Old 05-24-2011, 11:06 AM
  #44  
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I don't usually bring back sleeping threads, but I just had to on this one.
My husband was the West Coast regional sales manager for the "Z" wax company. He found out quickly that he should not have trusted the person that promised him everything. He left a well paid job that he loved, but he believed the hype that was being served along with the wining and dining. Pure unadulterated hype. Much as the same as the product itself.
He can also second the earlier posts that certain products were purchased from the "M" wax company and poured straight into "Z" bottles.
Right or wrong....misrepresentation.....unethical?
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Old 05-24-2011, 01:47 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by RJT View Post
I don't usually bring back sleeping threads, but I just had to on this one.
My husband was the West Coast regional sales manager for the "Z" wax company. He found out quickly that he should not have trusted the person that promised him everything. He left a well paid job that he loved, but he believed the hype that was being served along with the wining and dining. Pure unadulterated hype. Much as the same as the product itself.
He can also second the earlier posts that certain products were purchased from the "M" wax company and poured straight into "Z" bottles.
Right or wrong....misrepresentation.....unethical?
Sorry to hear that. It seems many of livelihoods were taken and simply used and spit back out. Let your husband know he's not the only one. But, it's a learning experience and you chalk it up to life's lessons. Thanks for sharing.
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