Stephen Porter

Newbie question:

Just how close to "perfect" can a car's finish get?

I know the answer to this probably depends on a lot of factors, and probably the first one is "How bad was it to start?" But given that, I've noticed that when I look at cars that are very close to brand new in sunlight there are ALWAYS what appear to be extremely fine scratches/swirl marks. This is most noticeable, of course, on darker cars. And again, I want to emphasize calling these imperfections "scratches and swirls" is probably way overkill.

I've even noticed this on my car after a very professional ($250) detail from a professional shop that handles lots of very high-end cars.

It seems that very valuable, completely-restored museum cars are "perfect," but even that might be a function of lighting--I've never really gotten a chance to looks super-closely.

I've thought that with it might be an interesting project to take a car one section at a time and make it really "perfect," but that just begs this question of what is actually possible?

TIA for any info.

Marine Blue

Deeper scratches are very difficult to correct unless you're willing to remove a great deal of paint.

Swirls and hazing are IMHO very easy to remove although it is truly amazing how many "professional" detailers can't get it right. A friend of mine with a single stage red GTS had his car buffed by a highly recommended detailer and when I saw the car I couldn't believe it. They managed to leave really deep swirls on every single panel on the car and it looked awful. He didn't pick up on it until I pointed it out and then he was pissed. I corrected it for him and all was well but the fact that he paid good money to ruin his car blows my mind.

The right process is imperative, read a bunch of posts on here and do it yourself.

tdekany

Stephen - Unfortunately most of those so called high end detailing shops can't perform true paint correction. But, that maybe not required by the owner of these cars due to lack of education. However it is very possible to have a 100% clean - swirl free finish. The good news is that there are many of us who detail to a very very high standard and can remove imprfections.

And you are right, a big % of unsold cars are messed up before they get sold.

here is a 3 day old ZR1

PS: A $250 dollar detail should not include paint correction.

Before



After

tdekany

This is what happens after 2 years and improper washing/drying. This is an 06 M45:

before



after

TOGWT

Paint Correction / Restoration

This entails correcting 95% + of the visible imperfection in the paint; swirls, scratches, etching, etc, which are legitimately, removed without compromising the clear coat thickness. This type of paint renovation should only be needed once in a car's lifetime; maintaining the integrity of the vehicle's original paint should be relatively easy provided the paint surface is correctly maintained; using the proper technique, and quality tools and car care products for washing and drying there should be no reason (barring an accident or vandalism) that you would inflict surface scratches or swirls.

Repainting will negatively impact a vehicles resale value, especially on Antique or Classic vehicles as well as affecting its ‘as original’ finish, its future resale value depends on its all round condition, including the original paint. The proper use of a paint thickness gauge (PTG) is highly recommended
There comes a point when you must judge wither removing a scratch will compromise the clear coat (0.5 Mil >) and if so you’ll have to ‘live’ with the imperfection (these can be aesthetically masked by using a Glaze)
The light surface marring that results from wiping down with a towel over time can easily be remedied by using a very light abrasive one-step polish (Menzerna PO 203 S - Power Finish) and a protective wax and/or polymer sealant.. This way you’ll maintain the original paint’s integrity for decades, with allowance only for environmental erosion.

Methodology

1. Wash the paint surface
2. Bonded contaminants on the cars paintwork should be removed using a detailer’s clay bar to leave a smooth surface ready for machine compound or polish.
3. Take thickness measurements of the paint surface with a paint thickness gauge (PTG) any areas that are suspect should be noted on a Paint Thickness Template and will require very careful consideration as to the best method of correction to avoid striking through the clear coat.
4. Inspect the paint finish with a paint inspection lamp (3M SunGun or a Brinkman) this makes spotting any paint imperfections a great deal easier.
5. Throughout all stages of the polishing process the cars trim adjacent to the area being worked on should be carefully protected using painters tape to mask it to avoid damage.
6. Start the polishing process with a diagnosis of the paint finish and then proceed with the least aggressive polish / pad combination on a ‘test section’ panel, once you have established a suitable polish/pad combination proceed to polish / refine the paint surface
7. It may be necessary to carry out some localized wet sanding to facilitate full removal of any deep scratches, once again, paint thickness will be checked, and if the paint is too thin wet sanding should not be considered.
8. Finally use a polish to remove any surface imperfection and then a fine polish / pad to burnish the paint surface

An extract from one of a series of 110 in-depth, unbiased “Detailing Technical Papers” © TOGWT ™ Ltd Copyright 2002-2009, all rights reserved.
These papers will enable direct access to five decades of detailing knowledge and experience

ricster

The problem with trying to achieve this is once you do it and get it "perfect" you wont want to drive it.

Marine Blue

Partially true....It just gives you an excuse to do it all over again.

Although every time you find a new chip/scratch you want to

Stealth 993

Most real PRO's can do 80-100% correction, depending on how much you want to pay, & how much paint is left.

I got my C4S to 100% correction for a car show, took about 30 hours of cleaning, taping, removing parts, polish, wax, etc..

Then of course using the car it will get more fine scratches in it. But the good news is once you get it to 90+% percent, you really only need to maintain it, & use a very ligth polish, or a cleaner wax to get it back.

The best way to keep your car looking great is in the wash, & never, never use quick detailers, or auto washes.

Before





After

tdekany

993 - who did the work for you? Car looked great!

Stealth 993

Thanks, I do all my own work. I also work time to time with a very good local detailer when he needs the extra help.

Stephen Porter

I assume by "quick detailers" you mean products that the various companies sell? E.g., Mequiar's Quik Detailer, etc., etc.? This is news to me and I'm glad to hear about it, but I'm wondering why? Do they contain abrasives that will just scratch the "perfect" finish?

If this is the case, then what do you recommend for cleaning up a car when it get bugs, dirt, bird poop, etc.? Just a good, gentle washing? What products are safe to wash with? What IS safe to bring back the "just detailed" shine?

I'm also assuming that by "auto washes," you mean mechanized car wash machines? Of couse I wouldn't do that--I'm afraid to even let anyone else besides myself or my detailer wash the car.

Thanks again for the info on the "Quick detailers"--I've always thought those were OK!!

Stephen Porter

Sorry for not getting back to this to thank everyone who has contributed to my original question. I now feel like relative "perfection" is attainable and not just tail-chasing. I've also had a closer look at my 928 (in avatar) and I think it's it fairly decent shape. There aren't any real swirls marks and other scratches and imperfections seem to be just deeper imperfections that have accumulated over 21 years and couldn't really be corrected without removing too much paint. The only swirls, very slight scratches that I noticed were in an area where I had "quick detailed" something I had cleaned up. (Had to removed the black paint in the indented "PORSCHE" letters on the rear bumper guard. Now I have learned, according to post above, that this is a no-no and I probably have worsened the finish buy doing so and will have to figure out how to polish back to "perfect".

The previous owner was a very detail-oriented person and really kept the car in great cosmetic AND mechancial shape. I'd like to maintain his work.

A couple more questions: this is a single-stage paint? The last time the paint thickness was measured it ranged from 4.1 on the sunroof, 4.7 on the roof. Fenders were: 4.4-4.6. I confess I'm not sure what unit of measurements this would be--so please enlighten me. I'm assuming this is still "pretty good"? Does any of the general advice already offered change when the car is single-stage paint, vintage 1988?

Lastly (for now ), is there any consensus on how to wash and, more particularly, DRY a car? When I was younger, the high-quality chamois was king. Now there are "genuine" chamois (although I doubt they are really chamois skins--those things MUST be endangered by now?), the synthetic chamois's, micro-fiber towels, soft cotton towels, etc., etc. What say you guys about these?

Again, thanks for all the pointers to an amateur and a noob.

Marine Blue

Quick Detailers are safe to use as long as you know when to use them. For example, if your car has been through rain, wet roads, muddy roads or is very dirty then you should gently wash the car using proper technique.

If however you just went for a Sunday drive on a nice sunny day for a few hours there is absolutely no harm in using a QD. You should however first use a california duster to remove the excess dust before you start. You should also wipe from top and work your way down until you finish at the rocker panels. Use a seperate microfiber for wiping behind the front/rear tires. Use a seperate Microfiber for the wheels.

Never mix microfibers either. For example, if you use a Microfiber on the wheels you should wash and reuse that for the wheels in the future, not the cars paint.

I've put 2500 miles on my car since I bought it and I haven't washed once with exception to the first day I brought it home. It has never seen a hose and soap since. I've used this technique for years without a problem.

Another thing to remember is not to skimp on the microfiber. Spend the $$ to get a plush high quality microfiber that won't scratch your paint. Several of the vendors on here offer quality Microfibers.

Here's a shot of my nearly 20 year old hood with original paint.

Stealth 993

QD (quick detailers) are the devil! Yes, they have their place, but more often then not, they do more damage then good. No matter how you use them. Really they are good to remove a bird poop, or some bugs before they set in. But with any kind of dirt, they can scratch. To really QD a whole car, it will take 4-6 MF towels. I still do it, I want the car clean, but don't want to wash it, so I'll use a QD, then the next time I wash it, & look at it in the sun, there are faint swirls. But on more other colors you might not be able to see the swirls. Some of the GD's have a filler type wax, that hides the damage till it wear or washes away later. They are purely a short term solution. But I still do use them. The best use is to help remove wax residue after waxing, or to clean off light dust. Of course they rock on wheels, door jams, & other little cleaning jobs.

Any drive through, or paid pressure washer is bad, they just strip everything off the car, put on a short term silicone shine. Hand washing is best, & even that isn't perfect.

I bet there are a lot more swirls on there then you know about. You got to look at it in direct sunlight, or under halogen lights.

Sounds like you have plenty of paint left, & single stage is usually harder, & can take a bit more abuse. But it also will oxidize much faster if not taken care of. Really you treat single stage just like any other paint. Really all paint is the same, some is just harder, or softer. So you use a slightly different technique on them.

I dry my car with a really big MF drying towel. Never rub, just drag it lightly across. My C4S has her own towel & wash mit.

NEVER, use a QD after heading down a muddy road. Your other uses are OK, but mud & QD is bad, you will scratch, no matter what you use, or do. I also hate the dusters, they can also scratch. Of course not all dust is the same, some is way more course. QD's are better for light dust VS the duster. Great advice on the top to bottom, it should be the norm, as is using a separate towel for the very bottom & wheels.

Yea, quality MF is a must! Costco towels are good for door jams, engine bays & wheels. Not the paint.

Dam, don't know how you do it! My car get dirty just sitting in the garage not getting driven!

Stealth 993

Oh also want to say, not everything I do all detailers will agree with. We all have our own technique, & products we like. I'm not the gospel, just what I have learned over the years.

One thing we all agree on, black cars suck!