Help with Durametric Codes: 171 & 174 ?
02-02-2017, 10:40 PM
#1
Help with Durametric Codes: 171 & 174 ?
2008 Cayenne GTS with about 80K miles on it
Hopefully you guys can help with trouble shooting this ... I've asked Durametric,
however their answer is that they do not diagnose a trouble code.
Here's what I have on my Durametric
1. Engine idles rough
2. Durametric Codes I get are 171 & 174
171 = OBD-II Trouble Code: System Too Lean (Bank 1)
174 = OBD-II Trouble Code: System Too Lean (Bank 2)
What I've done:
1. changed both air filters
2. Installed 2x new MAF sensors (just the sensors) not the whole cylinder housing
3. checked the the flexible tubes (after the MAF sensors) for any cracks ... plenum looks good... at least from above
4. checked the small ridged vacuum hose at the front of the engine, that runs from that Black round cap (oil separator) to the front of the Throttle Body
5. checked the small ridged vacuum hose has at the back of the engine that runs from one cylinder head bank to the other
6. Checked the Oil cap .. flat washer seal looks ok
What's next?
Can I run some specific diagnostic in Durametric to narrow this down?
Is it an O2 sensor?
Any help greatly appreciated! Thanks!
Hopefully you guys can help with trouble shooting this ... I've asked Durametric,
however their answer is that they do not diagnose a trouble code.
Here's what I have on my Durametric
1. Engine idles rough
2. Durametric Codes I get are 171 & 174
171 = OBD-II Trouble Code: System Too Lean (Bank 1)
174 = OBD-II Trouble Code: System Too Lean (Bank 2)
What I've done:
1. changed both air filters
2. Installed 2x new MAF sensors (just the sensors) not the whole cylinder housing
3. checked the the flexible tubes (after the MAF sensors) for any cracks ... plenum looks good... at least from above
4. checked the small ridged vacuum hose at the front of the engine, that runs from that Black round cap (oil separator) to the front of the Throttle Body
5. checked the small ridged vacuum hose has at the back of the engine that runs from one cylinder head bank to the other
6. Checked the Oil cap .. flat washer seal looks ok
What's next?
Can I run some specific diagnostic in Durametric to narrow this down?
Is it an O2 sensor?
Any help greatly appreciated! Thanks!
02-02-2017, 10:55 PM
#2
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Dunno if Durametric will give you the high-pressure fuel pump readout - but if so - that would be of interest. I imagine it's similar to my '11 Turbo - and if needed I could look that up for you I think.
02-02-2017, 11:19 PM
#3
So fuel pump can cause those codes?
I was hoping leak is letting too much oxygen and making it run lean? or sensors are bad?
I was hoping leak is letting too much oxygen and making it run lean? or sensors are bad?
02-03-2017, 02:55 PM
#4
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It would have to be 2 O2 sensors for getting both banks indicating faults. There are separate bank 1 and bank 2 sensors in the exhaust system. That's unlikely unless somehow both sensors were poisoned.
One diagnostic that might help a bit - and it should be done OUTSIDE a garage, with a fire extinguisher handy - is spraying small spritz's of a flammable carb-cleaner - using the red straw that comes with it to direct the spray - around the hose fittings and the throttle body, while the engine is idling.
ANY change in idle indicates an intake leak. And the place you sprayed it is where you should look.
The alternative is a smoke test - where the intake is pressurized with smoke and you watch for where it comes out. Most people don't have the needed smoke machine.
When doing this - and you're on your own here - use SMALL spritz's of the cleaner. Keep the fire extinguisher handy in case you set things on fire (unlikely - but..).
FWIW - I have seen mention of the plastic Y shaped intake plenum cracking. I assume you've checked this by what you said - but the spray test would tell you immediately if there is an issue.
02-04-2017, 05:20 PM
#5
Thanks my friend ... so here's some additional info.
1. when I bought the GTS 3 years ago, it had CPO left .... the owner did install some Fab Speed pipes (which rattle every morning when I cold start up)
2. He did install BMC Oil Air filters ... but they have been OK all these years ... nonetheless, I swapped them out for regular FRAM air filters just to be on the safe side (how often should these air filters be cleaned/replaced?) ... I don't drive more than 5-7 miles per day
3. A while ago when the CEL came on ... I bought the Durametric kit, since I figure I'm pretty handy around engines .. .started noticing the 0171 code, then the 174
4. more recent 140 code started popping up
5. I bought some di-electric spray, removed the MAF sensors, and sprayed down the according to instructions and videos I watched ....even disconnected them to see if engine would run differently with MAF's disconnected
6. then I said, hell with it ... and just bought new MAF's sensors ... still the same
7. checked the two vacuum hoses that I talked about above ... no cracks there ....
Q: I have not removed the entire plastic plenum system to check for cracks?
Q: Could that circular pancake-type rubber gasket that sits in the oil collector be cracked? ... that thing looks like a bitch to remove ???
Q: What other vacuum lines can I check?
Q. How can I check the O2 sensors on each bank ... in Durametric?
1. when I bought the GTS 3 years ago, it had CPO left .... the owner did install some Fab Speed pipes (which rattle every morning when I cold start up)
2. He did install BMC Oil Air filters ... but they have been OK all these years ... nonetheless, I swapped them out for regular FRAM air filters just to be on the safe side (how often should these air filters be cleaned/replaced?) ... I don't drive more than 5-7 miles per day
3. A while ago when the CEL came on ... I bought the Durametric kit, since I figure I'm pretty handy around engines .. .started noticing the 0171 code, then the 174
4. more recent 140 code started popping up
5. I bought some di-electric spray, removed the MAF sensors, and sprayed down the according to instructions and videos I watched ....even disconnected them to see if engine would run differently with MAF's disconnected
6. then I said, hell with it ... and just bought new MAF's sensors ... still the same
7. checked the two vacuum hoses that I talked about above ... no cracks there ....
Q: I have not removed the entire plastic plenum system to check for cracks?
Q: Could that circular pancake-type rubber gasket that sits in the oil collector be cracked? ... that thing looks like a bitch to remove ???
Q: What other vacuum lines can I check?
Q. How can I check the O2 sensors on each bank ... in Durametric?
Certainly an intake leak could cause those codes - and it would be a leak that is common to both banks, so we can eliminate the intake manifold gaskets. It could be a vent hose connected to the common manifold before it branches off to the two banks, or it could be around the throttle body assembly, or anywhere between the MAF's and the throttle body.
It would have to be 2 O2 sensors for getting both banks indicating faults. There are separate bank 1 and bank 2 sensors in the exhaust system. That's unlikely unless somehow both sensors were poisoned.
One diagnostic that might help a bit - and it should be done OUTSIDE a garage, with a fire extinguisher handy - is spraying small spritz's of a flammable carb-cleaner - using the red straw that comes with it to direct the spray - around the hose fittings and the throttle body, while the engine is idling.
ANY change in idle indicates an intake leak. And the place you sprayed it is where you should look.
The alternative is a smoke test - where the intake is pressurized with smoke and you watch for where it comes out. Most people don't have the needed smoke machine.
When doing this - and you're on your own here - use SMALL spritz's of the cleaner. Keep the fire extinguisher handy in case you set things on fire (unlikely - but..).
FWIW - I have seen mention of the plastic Y shaped intake plenum cracking. I assume you've checked this by what you said - but the spray test would tell you immediately if there is an issue.
It would have to be 2 O2 sensors for getting both banks indicating faults. There are separate bank 1 and bank 2 sensors in the exhaust system. That's unlikely unless somehow both sensors were poisoned.
One diagnostic that might help a bit - and it should be done OUTSIDE a garage, with a fire extinguisher handy - is spraying small spritz's of a flammable carb-cleaner - using the red straw that comes with it to direct the spray - around the hose fittings and the throttle body, while the engine is idling.
ANY change in idle indicates an intake leak. And the place you sprayed it is where you should look.
The alternative is a smoke test - where the intake is pressurized with smoke and you watch for where it comes out. Most people don't have the needed smoke machine.
When doing this - and you're on your own here - use SMALL spritz's of the cleaner. Keep the fire extinguisher handy in case you set things on fire (unlikely - but..).
FWIW - I have seen mention of the plastic Y shaped intake plenum cracking. I assume you've checked this by what you said - but the spray test would tell you immediately if there is an issue.
02-04-2017, 06:16 PM
#6
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Gawd - you caught me. I love it when someone asks questions in a logical manner.. it puts me on my best behavior.
The filters should easily last 20,000 miles, and probably a LOT longer. What most people don't realize - the filter getting clogged will have two effects: (1) it will actually filter better as it gets clogged until it's so clogged that dirt is forced through it - by then you'll notice the performance falling off (2) performance falling off will first be noticed at max engine output - it will drop. It may not be noticeable at less than max engine. And it won't change MPG - since the mixture is set to match the oxygen available by the O2 sensors and the ECU.
Hopefully NOT dielectric spray. Dielectric means non-conductive. Often a silicone oil or fish oil based spray designed to displace moisture and make it harder for electrons to move where they're unwanted. A dielectric spray would leave a coating behind - that would contaminate a hot-wire MAF (we have a sort of hot-wire MAF - it uses more a hot surface..) Whatever - it's not what you want on an MAF.
What you want is an electronic cleaner that leaves no residue behind. CRC makes one just for MAF's. It's also a good general purpose no-residue cleaner. It's called CRC MAF Cleaner (go figure..)
Probably worth doing and not all that hard. The plastic pins that lock it all in place have keys on the bottom where you can't see them, that pass through slots in the plastic plenum. A dental mirror will help you line these up, or you can do like most people do - force the pin out and the key breaks off eliminating the need to line it up. My '06 had no keys left, and the pins never tried to leave the vehicle. 
There is a thread about that here somewhere. And the answer is - yes - could be - but the symptom of that is usually high oil use.Any. Dunno how many there are or where they all are since I haven't needed to do this.Should be able to plot the output of the sensors. They should show a saw-tooth pattern with an interval of about 1 second between peaks. The max voltage should be roughly 1V. I believe Durametric can plot the output. Later models like the 958 use broad-band O2 sensors, which have a different output pattern. More a constant output voltage. Since your's is a 957, it should still have the sawtooth pattern on the front (ahead of the catalytics) sensors. The ones behind the catalytics - should have a constant voltage output, which means the catalytic converter is working.
There'ya go. HTH!
Thanks my friend ... so here's some additional info.
1. when I bought the GTS 3 years ago, it had CPO left .... the owner did install some Fab Speed pipes (which rattle every morning when I cold start up)
2. He did install BMC Oil Air filters ... but they have been OK all these years ... nonetheless, I swapped them out for regular FRAM air filters just to be on the safe side (how often should these air filters be cleaned/replaced?) ... I don't drive more than 5-7 miles per day
1. when I bought the GTS 3 years ago, it had CPO left .... the owner did install some Fab Speed pipes (which rattle every morning when I cold start up)
2. He did install BMC Oil Air filters ... but they have been OK all these years ... nonetheless, I swapped them out for regular FRAM air filters just to be on the safe side (how often should these air filters be cleaned/replaced?) ... I don't drive more than 5-7 miles per day
3. A while ago when the CEL came on ... I bought the Durametric kit, since I figure I'm pretty handy around engines .. .started noticing the 0171 code, then the 174
4. more recent 140 code started popping up
5. I bought some di-electric spray, removed the MAF sensors, and sprayed down the according to instructions and videos I watched ....even disconnected them to see if engine would run differently with MAF's disconnected
4. more recent 140 code started popping up
5. I bought some di-electric spray, removed the MAF sensors, and sprayed down the according to instructions and videos I watched ....even disconnected them to see if engine would run differently with MAF's disconnected
What you want is an electronic cleaner that leaves no residue behind. CRC makes one just for MAF's. It's also a good general purpose no-residue cleaner. It's called CRC MAF Cleaner (go figure..)
There'ya go. HTH!
02-04-2017, 06:38 PM
#7
Sorry ... its is CRC QD Electric Cleaner I used - quick drying (says: Plastic Safe, Leaves No Residue) .. .contains hexanes, difluorethanes and ethanols ... don't see any silicone or other additives
I usedi to clean the original MAF sensors ... to see if that would help ... no change ... I ended up buying 2 new sensors to see it that made difference ... it has not
I usedi to clean the original MAF sensors ... to see if that would help ... no change ... I ended up buying 2 new sensors to see it that made difference ... it has not
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02-04-2017, 10:11 PM
#8
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Sorry ... its is CRC QD Electric Cleaner I used - quick drying (says: Plastic Safe, Leaves No Residue) .. .contains hexanes, difluorethanes and ethanols ... don't see any silicone or other additives
I usedi to clean the original MAF sensors ... to see if that would help ... no change ... I ended up buying 2 new sensors to see it that made difference ... it has not
I usedi to clean the original MAF sensors ... to see if that would help ... no change ... I ended up buying 2 new sensors to see it that made difference ... it has not
08-30-2017, 07:33 PM
#12
It was the Air Oil Separator ... the rubber diaphragm has tendency to crack after a while, and causes those codes .. and plus you may hear a ringing sound coming from the engine after you have driven a while. So I went on eBay and purchased a whole new one ... the diaphragm can be replaced for like $20, there is a guy in Russia that sells them for like $30 shipped ... however, removing the black cover off of the oil separator .. it is very very difficult and you end up snapping off some of those retaining clips on the cap.
This is the entire part that Porsche will replace for like $400+ ..... https://www.suncoastparts.com/product/957V8SEP.html
Pelican Parts has instructions and shows you what happens to the diaphragm .... http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarti..._Separator.htm
This is the entire part that Porsche will replace for like $400+ ..... https://www.suncoastparts.com/product/957V8SEP.html
Pelican Parts has instructions and shows you what happens to the diaphragm .... http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarti..._Separator.htm
08-30-2017, 07:39 PM
#13
I purchased 2 from this guy ... and they actually come stamped and number EXACTLY like the OEM Bosch ones on my GTS ... I removed the 2 security screws that hold the current sensors and then installed these .... and they WORK!! Remember, All you need to change is the actual MAF ... NOT that entire cylindrical housing! The hardest part is finding a bit for those security screws ... it's a Torx bit with a nipple in the middle of the torx hole.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/F00C2G2063-F...wAAOSw41xXOuyl
http://www.ebay.com/itm/F00C2G2063-F...wAAOSw41xXOuyl
08-30-2017, 10:22 PM
#14
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I have several sets I've picked up free hanging around the garage. The security bits aren't good for high-torque applications - the center hole weakens them a lot and they tend to shatter the bit.