Gonzo

Looking at the Bright Side...

Today's Porsche doesn't have the Racing Know-How that VW/Audi does; only their Racing Heritage remains. Heck, Porsche's brightest and best probably now get paid by VW/Audi- helping them learn and, more importantly, WIN Races.

At last, here's a way to get a true race-bred engine Back into a Porsche- through VW.

jhunt@huntinter

haha, so true. Maybe VW's catchet will surpass Porsche, they certainly own some interesting brands now (Bentley, Lambo, Rolls)

John

rockitman

Todd, did not mean to bring ego into the conversation. I have the V8 Porsche and I guess I get a little defensive when people call it a VW and I paid close to 69K for a quote un-quote VW. I know deep down in my heart that I have a Porsche... I ca'nt say that I would have bought a V6 version with a VW engine, but looking at the big picture, from a marketing perspective and potential market share, it's a good thing for all Porsche owners that they are trying to ensure there continued financial viability by appealing to greater numbers of potential SUV buyers. In the not too distant future a month or so I will be in the market for a '01 or '02 996TT with low mileage and this gets to my second point...I just have been reading some posts on the 996TT GT2 board that Porsche may be shipping very few '04 model year 996TT's to the US next year and this relates to my point that Porsche needs to sell more vehicles that appeal to the masses here in the US. What an awful thought that would be if PAG stops shipping TT's to the US all together since not enough revenue is fourthcoming from the US to justify a robust production schedule. So I feel the more models they can sell to appeal to a bigger US market benefits us all.

Adrian: Thank you for you insight and history lesson

Respectfully to all,

Chris

Gonzo

My apologies to the moderator. I did not mean to disrespect your requests for restraint. The Cayenne IS a div
isive subject and as such some other Porsche boards prefer not to stray onto the topic.

I thought that this would be a good site to vent frustration, being the Cayenne Forum, but I see that the *General Porsche Discussions Forum* would be a more considerate place to trash-talk, should one be so inclined. It is probably a much more appropriate place, too, given the nature of the subject. If I offended any V6 Cayenne owners please forgive me.

: )

OldGuy

You know although I dont care too much for the cayenne's
look I thought over all it was a natural progression
given Porsche's history in the Paris to Dakar races.
If I was in the SUV market I would certainly consider it
and I have had many culminating with the Toyota Land
Cruiser. When you consider all the AWD work the company
(PAG) has done it was an easy step.
OG

Adrian

A couple of point.
OG you are correct when you say about the AWD work done in the past. The tiptronic AWD system in the Cayenne is not of Porsche design but they will have had a huge input of course. The original tiptronic used in the 964 came from a Mercedes design. As 928 owners know their auto was a Merc unit. Just to even things up the new 996 targa roof system is designed and manufactured by Daimler Chyrsler. Suspension is built in Austria.

Let me give you so me more facts.
Porsche built their first offroad vehicle in 1954. This was for the German army and many still survive today.
Everyone talks about the Porsche sports car. Do you know why the first 356 was a mid engined open top roadster? The answer is simple. There was insufficient roof height in the shed they were using to be able to install a roof on their crude production line set up.
If you look at the history of the 356 you will see that not only did Ferry Porsches design team design a genuine 4 seat extended version of the 356 they actually had them made here in Switzerland.
The next major design after the 356 was not as many people believe the 901 but the 4 seat type 600 something. I have forgotten the number because I am at work. Might have been the 640. The 901 was actually developed from this design which dates from 1960.
Now to the old 2 + 2 issue. This was done to circumvent having to build the 901 to passenger or family vehicle standards of the 1960s. Yes they did have them. Sports car then as now have less restrictions placed upon them. 2 + 2 in Germany nowadays means you do not have to install a speed limiter. 4 seaters require a speed limiter because they are regarded as family vehicles. SUVs also do not need speed limiters because they are regarded still in Germany as commercial vehicles. Hence the VIN WP1 instead of WP0 for passenger vehicles.
To me Ferry Porsche sitting in meeting with Mercedes and then contacting VW after Mercedes turned him down is pretty conclusive evidence of his support for the project.
I always recommend for people to visit the museums of Europe and look out for Porsche products apart from sports cars.
Industrial engines.
Tractors.
Off road vehicles
Missle launch systems
Aircraft cockpits
Aircraft engines
Motor boat engines
Wind power generators
Luge
The 914 followed by the 924 were supposed to be the launch of Porsche into the world of serious mass production.
The 914 was a partnership between VW and Porsche
The 924 was a VW design tweaked by Porsche and built in co-operation with Audi.
The 944 was a development of the 924 with half the 928 engine.
Porsche also assembled and tweaked the Audi RS2 and the Mercedes 500E. Porsche also tweaked the Subaru Impreza in return for viscous coupling technology.
The Cayenne is a further development of projects and thinking which started in the 1950s.
Has anyone ever seen the all aluminium Porsche four door that looks very much like a VW Golf. It is in Munich. There is of course the Porsche Minivan prototype. Porsche has never been just "a sports car manufacturer" Sports cars have been their niche and bread and butter but not their only interest.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

Flying Finn

I'm like Ferry then,

I'd be ok with the Cayenne (I dunno w/ the V6) if Porsche used some of the funds it produces (as they said they will) to do some major racing.

But they're not.

Porsche stopped major racing and turned those "forces" to building trucks and that's what bothers me.

Tony, come one.

Adrian

Dear Flying Finn,
The purpose of my posts on this subject is not because I agree with decisions of Porsche management when it comes to racing etc. It is just to show that whilst Porsche has only succeeded in building sports cars and GT cars in the past and now added a SUV to the list, they had other plans as well. Most did not work of course and sports and GT cars remained their bread and butter they would have deviated a long time ago if they could done so.
I am sure the next 10 years will see a further move away from just sports cars (they no longer build GT cars). I see no movement towards factory racing whilst Porsche continue to sell almost everyting they make. Plus it is company policy. Factory team must win outright. No chance of that without a huge investment and the current management are not racers.
A wider range of Cayennes, especially ones which are cheaper and more fuel efficient than they are now (V6 and Diesel much more suited to European needs) is the way to go to increase income. Boxster and 911 sales are down. The Boxster seriously down.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

Flying Finn

Dear Adrian,

I fully understand you (at least I think so!)

I've also seen many Porsche prototypes (unfortunately, not in person) and some 911 four seaters etc. show that they've often considered or planned lot less "sporty" alternatives, and although I'd rather see them building sports cars only, I understand that they need (ok, maybe not totally necessary but makes sense anyway) to build other cars as well.

Fact that they don't race (besides building customer cars) troubles me because I sincerely think street cars would benefit from racing. They certainly benefit from GT3RS customer cars, there's no doubt about it but with bigger budgets & more opend "fields" (for new ideas), they don't get as much as they would with real "works" teams, if not from prototypes, from GT & GTS (Carrera GT) would be great, IMO.
And as in "good old days", I'm sure they'd have plenty of customers for prototypes or Carrera GT race cars also, so it's not all "blowing money" either.

I firmly believe (I'm sure!) Porsche would be as great as it is today, had they stopped racing, say 20 years ago so I'm afraid what kind of Porsches we have 20 years from now.
Porsche is not just car for me, I really love them and am passionate about them, that's why you some times get stupid comments from me, even if I count to 100, and then post. Sorry for that, it seems that I can't help it, but I try!

911 & Boxster sales are down but I don't see that being long time problem, once economy picks up, I think they'll sell better again.

I actually think w/out Cayenne, Porsche would've sold more 911's & Boxsters because there must be people who wanted to have new Porsche, and since C was most practical (they really weren't after sports car so much, but wanted to own Porsche), they bought C instead of 911 or Boxster?

Anyway, have a great weekend!

mudman2

wow ! sorry but I think you are allowing your passion to cloud your judgement. I respect your passion as real and honest but disagree that any of us "new" porsche owners would have bought a porsche if the Cayenne did not exist.

We need multi-purpose vehicles mostly more than 2 seaters with luggage space and 365/24 capability. Even you have to admit no other porsche meets these criteria... NO please do not even try to tell me otherwise.

Peace

Adrian

Porsche with the Cayenne opened a completely new market and set of customers for itself. It is clear from the people on this forum that many only have a Cayenne and possibly have never owned a Porsche before. For my family Porsche ownership has been part of our lives for over a decade but only now are we getting to a point that the family wagon can be got rid of.
There are plans afoot at Leipzig for another production series. Thge Carrera GT is a limited production line. I have no idea what it will be but for the local motoring press, they are rallying around the four door, coupe and cabriolet version of the best described "928 redesign concept". I think this may show itself circa 2006 through 2008.
Zuffenhausen will continue with the 911 concept for many more years and I think the Boxster still has many more years in it especially when the coupe version is released.
I can see Porsche looking at producing 250,000 cars a year of four distinct types by between 2008 and 2010. I have no doubt that Ferry, Louise and their father would be very happy with this.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

mudman2

I had heard talk of a 4 foor M5/E55 beater.

Adrian

Dear Michael,
This is the same car. V8 up front, 4 door. I know for a fact that a number of V8 engines (not out of the Cayenne) have been tested in test rig type prototypes. How far they are in the actual design and decision making I do not officially know but the people in the design studio are hard at work and the CEO is quite hands on.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

Speedraser

Adrian, et al,

Regarding commercially available production vehicles, Porsche had not strayed from sports/GT cars until the Cayenne. They experimented with various prototypes, but always decided against building them until the Cayenne. The various other things you listed that they've built are in realms other than production cars. I think there is little debate, even within the controversial topic of the Cayenne, that it represents a MAJOR shift in the company's philosophy. Whether it proves to be a good or bad move from a financial perspective remains to be seen -- we're still very much in the short-term, and it's the long-term that really matters.

Also, it is my understanding that the 155 mph top-speed restriction is voluntary, not mandatory. Either way, it seems unlikely to me that this is the reason Porsche has not produced a 4-seater before. And what exactly were the restrictions/requirements in the '50s and '60s that they could circumvent by building 2+2s?

If Porsche builds/sells 250,000 vehicles it will have become truly a mass-marketer, even if it would still not be at the same level as many bigger manufacturers. I think there is little question that some of the Porsche mystique comes from NOT seeing them everywhere (and I mean in general, not in the various wealthy areas where they are fairly common). A Porsche is still an event. 250,000 annual vehicles will significantly alter this.

IMO, the BEST of a given thing usually comes from the company that does only that thing. When something tries to become all things to everyone (or makes a big move in that direction), it almost inevitably becomes less extraordinary at the thing it used to focus on (Porsche even used to advertise this, as they pointed out that they only do sports cars, and accordingly do them better than, e.g., BMW and M-B (Boxster vs. Z3 and SLK)). If they become another BMW or M-B, I think they will lose much of the specialness they had. I'm afraid this IS happening at Porsche, and it makes me very sad.

Adrian

Dear Todd,
The simple fact is that it has finally happened. Porsche find themselves in a situation and with the ability to change direction. In the past for many reasons this was not possible. One major restriction was Zuffenhausen itself. Hence the move to Leipzig. Room ot expand, politics, costs all played a role. Wishes and abilities are often far apart. You need to come to Europe and take the Porsche tour from Gmünd to Stuttgart. Check out the history for yourself. Learn the poilitics, learn that there is much more behind this that can be explained in an email or forum post. There are so many myths and legends created around Porsche. Come over and meet the people who were there in the 1950s. Check out the various collections and museums with Porsche history. Understanding how the German company does business is also a big plus. It is all here you just have to find it.
Anyway all this is irrelevant. The Cayenne is here. New models will follow.
Another point you make is about exclusivity. It depends where you live. I can show you places where the doorman drives a 964, the manager drives a 993 and the guests all drive 996s or Cayennes. Visit Maximillian strasse in Munich. Porsches are parked two three deep. I have photos of them. Visit St Tropez, Monaco. I believe Southern California is the same. Here in Switzerland it is the highest per capita market for Porsches in the world. In many places to be exclusive you need something else and deeper pockets.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

PS: Please also remember that Porsches are manufactured to German law and are only modified to suit other nation laws. This applies to all German manufacturers.
PSS: This discussion is really a waste of time. It is good but ineffective. The Cayenne is here, it is here to stay, more models of Cayenne are to be released and new models of Porsche are be released. The old Porsche is gone and long live the new Porsche.