gen.1 vs. gen. 2 reliability...
06-11-2014, 06:00 PM
#16
Three Wheelin'
The only motor any any of the years or models that, to me at least, has notable problems is the 955 CS for the scoring problem. It's not just a handful of forum people that have it, and there doesn't seem to be any correlation between how it was used and maintained. It's more a function of climate and the design issue with oil squirters. The 955 CTT, V6, NA V8 in the 957 and up - all pretty reliable motors in the grand scheme of things. Coolant pipes and coils are both 1-time fixes - and those are the only real notable "problems" the the CTT have. There are a lot of other parts that fail from time to time, but nothing super expensive, and nothing that is frequent. I mean, if we're talking a few hundred in engine parts over 100K miles and 10 years, that's pretty awesome.
The 03 and 04 cayenne had a lot of TSB's listed, but many were one time fixes and for narrow VIN ranges. I think by this point, most of the fixes have been dealt with, and it's why I was looking specifically for an 04 with at least 90K miles on it, or an 05/06. But, the 06 CTT is damn close in price to the 957 CTT.
I would put any of the CTT's in the category of reliable, both on it's own and when compared to many of the other Porsche cars. There is definitely more to go wrong than on a 997, but in reality people just don't end up spending a lot on parts failures. For comparison, my wife's 04 Murano was purchased with 100K miles, single owner, and a local car. It has 140K on it now, and she commutes 25 miles on almost 100% smooth interstate with no stop and go traffic. To date, we've spent 5500 on it.
The 957 is more reliable, but honestly you'd probably not notice it given when you'll end up spending on gas and insurance. The chassis, driveline, interior, and general motor design are all the same. Many of the reoccurring failures will happen on the 957 (control arms, drive shaft, etc). The 958 is quite a bit different, but has the same turbo V8 that's in the 957. I don't really know much about the reliability of the 958.
04 CTT - best value on the market. 20K gets you a solid, well optioned, and well sorted car.
06 CTT - the most reliable, has backup cam, can get a pano roof, and a few other minor features, but it's quite a bit more expensive than an 04, and close enough in price to an 08 that it's not a great buy IMO.
08 CTT - it's a face lifted 955. motor is a bit different (larger and direct injection), but the performance is close enough with a 955 to not make it a reason to buy. It does come with PDCC, which helps in handling, but again, not enough to really justify the cost over an 04. The looks, to me at least, are the biggest reason for the 957, and that's obviously subjective.
958 - same motor as the 957, and when you think about it, that either says a lot about the 955 given how little it's changed, or it doesn't say much about the 958. The interior is the biggest reason for the 958 as it's worlds better than the 957. But, the 958 doesn't have a lot of the trick off-roading equipment, and that'll either be a blessing to you as you get a lighter vehicle, or it'll suck if you do use the low-range. But, the 958 Turbo is still quite expensive compared to an 04.
I think the performance difference between an 958 and 955 CTT in a straight line isn't actually a lot. You can tune a 955 to be close, if not exceed, a 958. 958 handles better and has a nicer interior, too. But, reliability and cost of maintenance are all pretty low and shouldn't be a deciding factor for you since the small uptick in reliability you get in an 06 or 957 is not off-set by the premiums they demand. When you look at a land rover or range rover, which year you get can make a huge difference in the cost of ownership since they're not exactly reliable. Same with looking at some of the air-cooled pcars. But, there is no single reliability issue that stands out in any of the Turbos that would make you want one year over another. I bought my 04 CTT and will have put about 1600 into it to get it up to my standards. This included full fluid changes to Redline (including the tranny fluid and filters), hatch struts, control arms and alignment, a few preventative maintenance things (diverter valves, air filters, cabin filter, etc), and new wiper arms since mine lost their tension to hold the wiper against the windshield. I anticipate that I won't be spending much but gas, tires, and brakes for the next few years as even the parts that might fail aren't that expensive. My "reliable" '88 911 through 200K miles averaged about 1400 per year in parts and labor. That's with a tranny rebuild and a top-end. I anticipate the CTT to be substantially lower than that.
The 03 and 04 cayenne had a lot of TSB's listed, but many were one time fixes and for narrow VIN ranges. I think by this point, most of the fixes have been dealt with, and it's why I was looking specifically for an 04 with at least 90K miles on it, or an 05/06. But, the 06 CTT is damn close in price to the 957 CTT.
I would put any of the CTT's in the category of reliable, both on it's own and when compared to many of the other Porsche cars. There is definitely more to go wrong than on a 997, but in reality people just don't end up spending a lot on parts failures. For comparison, my wife's 04 Murano was purchased with 100K miles, single owner, and a local car. It has 140K on it now, and she commutes 25 miles on almost 100% smooth interstate with no stop and go traffic. To date, we've spent 5500 on it.
The 957 is more reliable, but honestly you'd probably not notice it given when you'll end up spending on gas and insurance. The chassis, driveline, interior, and general motor design are all the same. Many of the reoccurring failures will happen on the 957 (control arms, drive shaft, etc). The 958 is quite a bit different, but has the same turbo V8 that's in the 957. I don't really know much about the reliability of the 958.
04 CTT - best value on the market. 20K gets you a solid, well optioned, and well sorted car.
06 CTT - the most reliable, has backup cam, can get a pano roof, and a few other minor features, but it's quite a bit more expensive than an 04, and close enough in price to an 08 that it's not a great buy IMO.
08 CTT - it's a face lifted 955. motor is a bit different (larger and direct injection), but the performance is close enough with a 955 to not make it a reason to buy. It does come with PDCC, which helps in handling, but again, not enough to really justify the cost over an 04. The looks, to me at least, are the biggest reason for the 957, and that's obviously subjective.
958 - same motor as the 957, and when you think about it, that either says a lot about the 955 given how little it's changed, or it doesn't say much about the 958. The interior is the biggest reason for the 958 as it's worlds better than the 957. But, the 958 doesn't have a lot of the trick off-roading equipment, and that'll either be a blessing to you as you get a lighter vehicle, or it'll suck if you do use the low-range. But, the 958 Turbo is still quite expensive compared to an 04.
I think the performance difference between an 958 and 955 CTT in a straight line isn't actually a lot. You can tune a 955 to be close, if not exceed, a 958. 958 handles better and has a nicer interior, too. But, reliability and cost of maintenance are all pretty low and shouldn't be a deciding factor for you since the small uptick in reliability you get in an 06 or 957 is not off-set by the premiums they demand. When you look at a land rover or range rover, which year you get can make a huge difference in the cost of ownership since they're not exactly reliable. Same with looking at some of the air-cooled pcars. But, there is no single reliability issue that stands out in any of the Turbos that would make you want one year over another. I bought my 04 CTT and will have put about 1600 into it to get it up to my standards. This included full fluid changes to Redline (including the tranny fluid and filters), hatch struts, control arms and alignment, a few preventative maintenance things (diverter valves, air filters, cabin filter, etc), and new wiper arms since mine lost their tension to hold the wiper against the windshield. I anticipate that I won't be spending much but gas, tires, and brakes for the next few years as even the parts that might fail aren't that expensive. My "reliable" '88 911 through 200K miles averaged about 1400 per year in parts and labor. That's with a tranny rebuild and a top-end. I anticipate the CTT to be substantially lower than that.
06-11-2014, 09:57 PM
#17
Reliability of Gen 1 varies across the years. The later the better. I would recommend the last of the Gen 1's - '06 model year. Also, with the age of these cars by now, there's a trade-off between fancy options vs. reliability. If you don't get Panoramic roof, PCM, and air suspension, you're already way ahead of the game. The rest of the issues are well known; will happen on every car. Here's the short list:
1. Plastic coolant pipes bursting ($1500 if done proactively; $2200 if done after bursting)
2. Cardan Shaft (basically drive shaft) support breaking up, thereby killing the drive shaft
3. Xenon light beam adjustment error
4. Rear hatch strut going out (replacement requires dismantling interior trims in the back; ~ 2 hrs to replace)
5. Ignition coils (8 of them) burning out about every 50K miles
Otherwise, running costs are primarily the following (Likely to be the same across generations):
1) Brake drums and rotors about every 35K miles. Most places charges $2200 - $2400
2) Tires need replacement every 15K-35K miles, depending on the brand
3) Brake fluid flush every couple of years (not too expensive)
4) Lots of gasoline
1. Plastic coolant pipes bursting ($1500 if done proactively; $2200 if done after bursting)
2. Cardan Shaft (basically drive shaft) support breaking up, thereby killing the drive shaft
3. Xenon light beam adjustment error
4. Rear hatch strut going out (replacement requires dismantling interior trims in the back; ~ 2 hrs to replace)
5. Ignition coils (8 of them) burning out about every 50K miles
Otherwise, running costs are primarily the following (Likely to be the same across generations):
1) Brake drums and rotors about every 35K miles. Most places charges $2200 - $2400
2) Tires need replacement every 15K-35K miles, depending on the brand
3) Brake fluid flush every couple of years (not too expensive)
4) Lots of gasoline
Last edited by racer_65; 06-11-2014 at 11:53 PM.
06-11-2014, 10:51 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
The Data for those cars needing new engines isn't accurate because of Porsche refusal to release it. I can tell you that in my small circle of 986/996 friends 8 out of 11 cars are on 2nd engines. My 986 had a dealer reman at 29,000mls. My Cayenne S is at 90,000 and is running strong.
Drive shaft, fuel leak and coolant tubes are the only major items repaired.
06-11-2014, 11:08 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Reliability of Gen 1 various across the years. The later the better. I would recommend the last of the Gen 1's - '06 model year. Also, with the age of these cars by now, there's a trade-off between fancy options vs. reliability. If you don't get Panoramic roof, PCM, and air suspension, you're already way ahead of the game. The rest of the issues are well known; will happen on every car. Here's the short list:
1. Plastic coolant pipes bursting ($1500 if done proactively; $2200 if done after bursting)
2. Cardan Shaft (basically drive shaft) support breaking up, thereby killing the drive shaft
3. Xenon light beam adjustment error
4. Rear hatch strut going out (replacement requires dismantling interior trims in the back; ~ 2 hrs to replace)
5. Ignition coils (8 of them) burning out about every 50K miles
Otherwise, running costs are primarily the following (Likely to be the same across generations):
1) Brake drums and rotors about every 35K miles. Most places charges $2200 - $2400
2) Tires need replacement every 15K-35K miles, depending on the brand
3) Brake fluid flush every couple of years (not too expensive)
4) Lots of gasoline
1. Plastic coolant pipes bursting ($1500 if done proactively; $2200 if done after bursting)
2. Cardan Shaft (basically drive shaft) support breaking up, thereby killing the drive shaft
3. Xenon light beam adjustment error
4. Rear hatch strut going out (replacement requires dismantling interior trims in the back; ~ 2 hrs to replace)
5. Ignition coils (8 of them) burning out about every 50K miles
Otherwise, running costs are primarily the following (Likely to be the same across generations):
1) Brake drums and rotors about every 35K miles. Most places charges $2200 - $2400
2) Tires need replacement every 15K-35K miles, depending on the brand
3) Brake fluid flush every couple of years (not too expensive)
4) Lots of gasoline
06-12-2014, 06:36 AM
#20
Love my 957 GTS. Have had no issues over the last few years other than a sticky brake caliper. Traded a full-size Range Rover in on it and never looked back. I hardly drive my 997 because of it.
Last edited by svb; 06-25-2014 at 06:20 PM.
06-12-2014, 09:09 AM
#21
Nordschleife Master
Both are the same, with the Turbo models engines being the most reliable. Personally I like the rear of the 955 better also the Turbos come with a lot more things that make the interior nicer. I love mine. I got rear ended and it's in the shop getting fixed, they gave me a 957 Cayenne to drive. I don't think has even one option. Boy does it ever suck, slow no power, suspension sucks, it's too high and the automatic shifting is terrible, interior is terrible and electronics are terrible.
06-12-2014, 11:20 AM
#22
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Ask Jake how many 986/996's are sitting on his lot because of a IMS doomed engine.
The Data for those cars needing new engines isn't accurate because of Porsche refusal to release it. I can tell you that in my small circle of 986/996 friends 8 out of 11 cars are on 2nd engines. My 986 had a dealer reman at 29,000mls. My Cayenne S is at 90,000 and is running strong.
Drive shaft, fuel leak and coolant tubes are the only major items repaired.
The Data for those cars needing new engines isn't accurate because of Porsche refusal to release it. I can tell you that in my small circle of 986/996 friends 8 out of 11 cars are on 2nd engines. My 986 had a dealer reman at 29,000mls. My Cayenne S is at 90,000 and is running strong.
Drive shaft, fuel leak and coolant tubes are the only major items repaired.
I just replaced a perfect IMS bearing on my Boxster as a precaution. That 10 year old car has been very reliable.
Yes, the M96 has some issues, but I agree that the internet has blown things out of proportion (as it has for early Cayennes).
06-12-2014, 11:53 AM
#23
Rocky Mountain High
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Not to drift too far away from the Cayenne discussion... My 996 C4S is the most reliable car I've ever owned. I did have the IMSB replaced as preventative maintenance at ~120K miles when the original clutch was changed. There was no sign of impending failure when the original bearing was removed.
FWIW - I know dozens of 996 and 986 owners. I don't think I know of one instance of an IMSB failure or an engine replacement.
FWIW - I know dozens of 996 and 986 owners. I don't think I know of one instance of an IMSB failure or an engine replacement.
06-12-2014, 12:02 PM
#24
Nordschleife Master
Not to drift too far away from the Cayenne discussion... My 996 C4S is the most reliable car I've ever owned. I did have the IMSB replaced as preventative maintenance at ~120K miles when the original clutch was changed. There was no sign of impending failure when the original bearing was removed.
FWIW - I know dozens of 996 and 986 owners. I don't think I know of one instance of an IMSB failure or an engine replacement.
FWIW - I know dozens of 996 and 986 owners. I don't think I know of one instance of an IMSB failure or an engine replacement.
06-12-2014, 01:29 PM
#25
Your lucky then I know around 18 996 owners and 13 are on there second engine. Mostly scored cylinders only 2 because of IMS. Also know 4 997's and 2 Caymans because of scored cylinders. The 996 people I know that are on there first engine don't winter drive it or track their car.
You definitely seem to know an inordinate number of failed motors and I'm not going to try to discount that, but your experience definitely doesn't fit norm of what most people report. I'm not arguing that the IMS isn't an issue, just that it is a much over hyped issue and an easy one to mitigate (treat it as consumable and change it with your clutch).
06-12-2014, 01:34 PM
#26
Rocky Mountain High
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Wow... 13 out of 18 would scare me too!
06-12-2014, 01:37 PM
#27
Nordschleife Master
Out of all those, what did their mileage vs age look like at the time the damage occurred? From everything I've read it seems to be the low mileage "garage queens" that have the catastrophic failures. Seems to be once the engine passes the the 50-70k mark it's pretty "safe".
You definitely seem to know an inordinate number of failed motors and I'm not going to try to discount that, but your experience definitely doesn't fit norm of what most people report. I'm not arguing that the IMS isn't an issue, just that it is a much over hyped issue and an easy one to mitigate (treat it as consumable and change it with your clutch).
You definitely seem to know an inordinate number of failed motors and I'm not going to try to discount that, but your experience definitely doesn't fit norm of what most people report. I'm not arguing that the IMS isn't an issue, just that it is a much over hyped issue and an easy one to mitigate (treat it as consumable and change it with your clutch).
06-12-2014, 02:05 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Your lucky then I know around 18 996 owners and 13 are on there second engine. Mostly scored cylinders only 2 because of IMS. Also know 4 997's and 2 Caymans because of scored cylinders. The 996 people I know that are on there first engine don't winter drive it or track their car.
06-12-2014, 02:06 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Both are the same, with the Turbo models engines being the most reliable. Personally I like the rear of the 955 better also the Turbos come with a lot more things that make the interior nicer. I love mine. I got rear ended and it's in the shop getting fixed, they gave me a 957 Cayenne to drive. I don't think has even one option. Boy does it ever suck, slow no power, suspension sucks, it's too high and the automatic shifting is terrible, interior is terrible and electronics are terrible.
06-12-2014, 02:15 PM
#30
Nordschleife Master