gnat

They can call it out all they like. Unless they can prove that it has caused the stated problem they can't void squat in the US.

Again, they can say what they will, but unless they can prove it is at fault they don't have a legal leg to stand on.

Nope, this is absolutely incorrect in the US specifically because of Mag-Moss. Even if they can show (in the case of the BSP) that it caused say a fuel rail failure, all they can do is refuse to warranty the fuel rail. They still have to cover the rest of your engine, the transmission, etc..

The other fallacy that most people operate under is that the warranty is a single entity which is not the case. It's all covered in a single document for simplicity, but the reality is that each part has it's own coverage. So the warranty being voided on one part/system has no impact on the rest of the car.

It indeed does and has been proven to do so in many cases.

This is where you are wrong. You absolutely do not have to prove it wrong. By Federal law they are the ones that are obligated to prove it to be true.

Of course they are going to blame the modification either out of ignorance (they just don't know what they are talking about) or malice (they get more money for non-warranty work). The later example depends on you (proverbial) not knowing your legal rights.

Now in the case that you give, the suspension change is a likely cause for the reasons you gave. So the reality is that if you choose to fight it, the odds are that they will win in which case not only do you still have to pay the repair bill but you will also have to (likely) pay all the legal bills. For me, personally, a case like you suggest would not be worth fighting.

Needsdecaf

Remember the quote from M-M above? The part about your'e covered unless the manufacturer's warranty specifically prohibits said modifications?

And remember - the leg bone's connected to the thigh bone. So fuel rail, pistons, crank, and gee by golly, you over stressed your transmission putting out more torque than it' designed to handle.

Could you prove them wrong? You might. You might not, either. How many people are willing to hire the experts to dispute what the manufacturer says? How many people are going to spend more in legal fees than the repair (or even the car) is worth? Are you going to sideline your own car to pull the components and have an independent expert subject it to (possibly destructive) testing in order to prove your case? And again, how many juries of non-automotive experts are going to believe the experts of some yahoo who put a tuning box on their $80k Porsche and then complained when it didn't break? Not many.

Again, I've seen many people fight this. Most have lost, with and without legal council and going to trial. Usually those that have one have simply reached the point where the dealer makes the decision to pull the plug out of fear of bad publicity.

I understand how the letter of M-M reads. Please do not make the mistake that I am disputing what you say is true. What I AM saying is that how the dealers should operate and how they DO operate are two different things. And in most cases, they will make you push HARD before they reverse course. This I know from personal experience (twice, neither related to warranty coverage but other matters). I also know people who work for major auto manufacturers, both their corporate entities as well as their field engineers. I have heard their marching orders. They deny and let the owner prove them wrong.

Needsdecaf

PS, I'm condemning the Blue Spark either. I've had tuned cars before and I'd do it again. Not sure about on this car, though, although my friend who's also getting a 2014 Cayenne Diesel might get one. .

TAch Miami

+1 ... There is a line in the warranty booklet stating only Porsche approved parts are to be used on the car.

The inconvenience of not having the Power Entry and Drive and the Porsche Dynamic Lights is minor because the main concern is the service history of the OP’s car now includes the Bluespark which leaves him open to all kinds of warranty grief for future fuel system, turbos, engine and emission system problems.

gnat

Absolutely. My whole point is just that if someone is going to make a modification (be it an upgraded turbo charger with ECU flash or just new wheels) they need to understand how the changed part interacts with the rest of the car and understand their legal protections so that when the dealer tries to blow them off they know when they should be fighting it.

You are absolutely correct that everything rolls down hill. If my transmission crapped itself tomorrow and they tried to immediately blame the BSP, beyond making them actually open it (ultimately at my expense) and show that there was internal damage consistent with over torquing I wouldn't fight them on having to pay for it myself. The path is logical and the chances of winning are low so it would be silly to fight.

In cannon's case, however, if they wanted to continue pushing back and blaming the BSP for an E&D failure that occurred after it was removed and while they were mucking about in the computer, then I would absolutely take that one on because while (as I've tried to show) it is remotely possible for it to have an impact, the likelihood of it is beyond the realm of a reasonable conclusion (especially without further diagnoses).

For me, I love my BSP and I won't willingly be separated from it. I do, however, recognize that I am taking a calculated risk with it both in harm it could potentially do as well as bad will with the dealer network.

grohgreg

You left out one very critical word that redefines your entire position. "Only Porsche-approved replacement parts are to be used on the car". What this means is that if/when a non-approved replacement part fails, don't expect Porsche to replace it under warranty. This clause applies to most aftermarket add-ons as well, as you wouldn't expect Porsche to "approve" any of them. Yet the onus is on them to actually prove that your after-market part caused the failure of an otherwise warranted Porsche part or component.

Ironically, the only "Porsche-approved" aftermarket parts are those actually purchased at and installed by a Porsche dealer. At my dealership, they "authorize" the $2400 K40/360 radar detector. Never mind that adding the G5 laser diffuser (jammer) makes it illegal. Just tell the highway patrol officer that "it's Porsche-approved"!!

By the way, check here regarding the Consumer Arbitration Program for Motor Vehicles. They will mediate/arbitrate on the behalf or Porsche owners, within the scope of the Magnuson-Moss Act and applicable lemon laws. Note; Porsche owners only. Try this free (to the consumer) service before resorting to an attorney and the court system.

//greg//

mudman2

You are correct, SOME dealers will do things like fit a radar detector which is, in effect hooking a power circuit up to a free fuse bay which will not impact any operational system

Try and get them to chip it or put car bypass pipes on and mostly you will get a different response

This thread is getting bizzare

Needsdecaf

Dealer behavior when it comes to aftermarket parts and accessories is bizarre.

grohgreg

You completely missed the macro, and chose to focus on the micro. Appears that the CAP program and a clarification on replacement parts clause didn't catch your interest. Regarding the micro; this "Porsche-approved" aftermarket parts proviso is a scam. They will "approve" it, if they (just coincidentally) sell and install it. This policy conforms to neither law nor common sense - it's pure marketing.

//greg//

TAch Miami

Let's see if those who know the warranty and M_M so well will tempt fate and not remove their tuning box when they go in for service. I had one on my Mercedes GL and removed each time I even thought about visiting the dealer.

Well...what are you going to do?

grohgreg

This is what happens when you pipe up in a multiple-page thread, without reading the entire discussion first. Mine's been installed since December, and my CD has been in for warranty items and service 3 times since. Not only did I not remove it, I never even made an attempt to hide it. The service advisor is fully aware, and my warranty thus far has been fully honored

//greg//

philg3

Very interesting discussion. Sorry for the problems that some of you have experienced with this after market wonder box. Today's engine management systems are so complex -- well beyond what some of us learned in auto shop during our high school days, that adding these after market devices is a risky proposition. When I hear about the boosted acceleration, and other performance improvements, what goes through my mind is that the power train is being stressed, and could lead to expensive failures in the near future, or further down the road.

Now, people are talking about lawyers. Life's too short for this. Porsche has fine development teams, that look at, and fine tune, power train issues, in conjunction with reliability. Why mess with it? You guys really think you are smarter than Porsche engineers?

grohgreg

Phil - consider at the onset that the latest Cayenne Turbo S pushes 550 hp and 553 ft-lbs of torque through essentially the same drivetrain as the Cayenne Diesel. Consider also that Diesel engines by default withstand proportionately more stress by virtue of the compression ignition design. Perhaps you haven't heard tha the last three 24 hours of Le Mans were won by German diesels. So the installation of a consumer grade tuning box capable of no more than 306 hp and 509 torque gives me absolutely no pause for concern

The reason the V6 diesel doesn't have even more power and torque is pure marketing. If Porsche tuned this car beyond the advertised 240hp/406torque, the couldn't sell any base V8s. I'm sure the Euro Diesel S can be tuned for far greater performance well past it's advertised 380hp/627torque as well. But then how would they sell any gassers at all?

//greg//

gnat

Mine has also been to the dealer with it installed (though as yet they have not had a reason to be under the hood). As I stated earlier in the thread, my feeling is that removing mods before going to the dealer is as disingenuous as the dealer trying to blame a mod for a (realistically) unrelated problem.

When you get into serious power gains catastrophic failure is certainly more possible, but at the minimal gains we are talking about that is a pretty low risk unless there is an underlying fault (which could have just as easily failed without the extra power). Certainly there is more stress being applied and I wouldn't be surprised to have to rebuild the transmission sooner than without the extra power, but we should still be talking about something well down the road that most owners won't see.

Actually the advise was to know your legal rights and to do your best to work it out without lawyers being involved. Lawyers should be the last resort.

So it's not something that is worthwhile for you to do, I don't have a problem with that. Do you really have a problem that I like the cheap extra power and economy? It's not like anyone in this thread has tried to say that Porsche should be responsible for any damages that our modifications may do, just that we need to make sure to keep them honest.

As far as thinking I'm smarter than a Porsche engineer in regards to the car/power design. Of course not, but that is exactly why I'm comfortable doing a relatively minor power increase. Porsche does not say "we're only tuning the engine for 400tq so let's just put a transmission in it that can only just handle that". This stuff is over engineered to a significant degree so that they can handle the real peak output of the engine. All engines are detuned from their true peaks for a variety of reasons (regional emissions laws, insurance costs (for the owner), increased profit (by offering MFG tuning packages or higher performance models), overall longevity, etc..). So within reason you have plenty of headroom to play before you have to start looking at beefier transmissions and the like.

gnat

Greg, If you reread the fine print on their website they seem to indicate the given figures are for the default config (Map 6). If that is the case, then we are producing more on the higher maps.

Also, the last time I was on their website I noticed they already have a box for the CDS. I forget the numbers though as the BSP has cured my CDS envy