canon_mutant

Don't necessarily expect anyone to tell me how to fix this but wanted to post for informational purposes.

I've been running the Bluespark aftermarket tuner for about 1 1/2 months now without ANY problems except for running doggy on one 103 degree day likely because I left the cover it came in on it after installing it probably causing the unit to overheat. Of course, there were no instructions to remove it but I should have known better. Electronics need to breathe. I've had no problems since I took the cover off but only 1 day above 100 degrees so far.

Totally unrelated, I put my 18" wheels back on with some Terra Grapplers for a trip to the mountains this weekend and got a TPMS fault afterwards that would not clear "I think" just because I drove home from the tire shop with the 4 street tires in back and the 4 new ones on the vehicle and it just got confused, latched a hard TPMS error, and quit trying.

So, today I went down to the dealership to have the TPMS fault reset and they blamed it on . . . you guessed it . . . the Bluespark module and refused to work on the vehicle.

I went down and unhooked the Bluespark for them [I know probably should have done that before I went] except when I get down there the Power Entry and Drive module and the Porsche Dynamic Light Module are now both DOA. Both have worked fine since installing the Bluespark. Both continued not to work after removing the Bluespark.

The TPMS error got fixed though by the technician simply resetting the code which is ALL I NEEDED HIM TO DO. The system relearned the new wheels and TPMS is all good now but the technician somehow screwed up these other two systems doing something and they are blaming it on me for installing the Bluespark.

The technician that worked on the vehicle asked me, get this, "if that thing was an amplifier for the stereo?" A module plugged into the fuel rail and the boost sensor is a stereo amplifier? So, I have absolutely NO faith in this man's technical competence.

So, we're leaving for CO Saturday, my Pepper is DOA, dealer won't fix it, and we'll probably have to take the old Volvo.

I know some of you have already indicated your service adviser knows about your Bluespark without any heartburn but, if they don't, you might want to consider removing it before ANY service attempts of ANY kind.

Peace . . .

TAch Miami

You went thru some unfortunate and avoidable circumstances that may be responsible for future warranty denials.

The service advisor is the lowest rung on repair ladder and it really doesn’t matter what he says or what the service manager says about what aftermarket parts they are ok with. All warranty claims go through PNA and they have the final say because your dealer isn't going to do a free repair for something they didn't sell.

stronbl

Sorry to hear this. There are many threads on these boards, not just Cayenne, about situations similar to yours so a bit of a search may be worthwhile. Also take a look at the link, your bluespark cannot be the reason for warranty denials unless it can be proven to have caused the problems. It is up to the dealer or manufacturer to prove your part caused the problem, not you.

I would suggest you discuss this denial of warranty coverage directly with the service manager and let them know you are familar with the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. Hope it works out for you.

By the way, you may also ask them to do a full module reset - factory handover and see if that fixes your issues. Sometimes simply running through the handover procedure can clear out errors and reset modules back to their original delivery to you state.

http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles...ne-maintenance

gnat

Actually this is not legally correct.

Your basic description is correct of how they will try to push back, but in the US there is a law (simpler english) specifically to protect you from the crap this dealer is trying to pull. Boiled down the law says that they can not deny your warranty claim unless they can prove that your modification is the cause of the problem. Furthermore, they can only deny the warranty on the replaced parts as well as the parts that they can show were damaged by the modification.

The dealer doesn't get to pick and choose and neither does PCNA. They have to first prove conclusively that your modification is at fault and that is more than the tech on the floor just saying so in a case like this.

Sadly many dealers will try to pull this kinda of stuff even when they know better (some just honestly don't know about this law as it gets to court so infrequently these days) since they get far more money from the job when you have to pay for it than they get from the MFG.

If you make any modifications to your car, you need to understand the laws that protect you.

As for the problem at hand, if the other issues only occurred after they messed with it and that was only after you removed the BSP then the BSP is clearly not at fault. I would suggest that you do the following:

1. I am not a lawyer, but I have read up on modifications and warranty law so I have a layman's knowledge. At a minimum I suggest you do some research on your own and a consultation with a lawyer would not be bad to get the info from the source.
2. Above all do not argue with them or get nasty. Be professional and respectful. If you get belligerent with them it's likely to make things more difficult. If it comes to that point, let your lawyer get ugly with them.
3. Talk to your SA again. Do not throw out the Magnuson-Moss Act at this point.
4. If he still refuses to do the warranty work and realise that these new issues can't have anything to do with something that was not installed at the time, get him to put it in writing. Specifically get him to put it in writting how he believes the the BSP is at fault.
5. Take that information with you and speak to the Service Manager.
6. If the Service Manager refuses to see reason, speak with the General Manager. This is when I would bring up the Mag-Moss Act should he continue to stonewall.
7. If he continues to stonewall, don't threaten him. Simply thank him for his time, leave, and then contact your lawyer. Your lawyer will send them (and possibly PCNA) a letter for you and that will most likely be the end of it and he/she can advise you of the further steps should they continue to be clueless.

Unfortunately some dealers are better than others about modifications and it sounds like you got a bad/clueless one. If at all possible I suggest using another dealer going forward as your future dealings with them are likely to be tarnished depending on far you have to take this. My dealer has been pretty cool up until my last visit when suddenly our relationship cooled drastically. Luckily I have 5 other options within the same distance to my purchasing dealer (3 of which are actually closer).

Good luck. Hopefully a few conversations will resolve this for you.

canon_mutant

Thanks, already talked to the sales manager who I actually know personally and he is "going to take care of it" tomorrow if I continue to get stonewalled.

Sadly, I never considered removing it because they had no reason to even pop the hood. I asked them to reset the TPMS fault so the system could relearn the new wheels. He either arc'd something, screwed up a reset, or a download, something to cause two other systems to crap out that were working perfectly when I pulled in.

Just hope whatever was screwed up is not bad enough to have to take the old Volvo to CO Saturday morning . . . waiting on parts.

And, BTW, I have to date loved this particular dealership so I am hopeful that we get it worked out. Just wanted to give fair warning that the BSP is capable of causing service grief that it really shouldn't.

Especially when the tech thinks it's a stereo amplifier apparently so powerful that it runs off the engine turbo charger . . . :-)

Needsdecaf

ALWAYS remove something like this before going to the dealer. ALWAYS.

As for M-M act, sure, they have to prove it. But they have the techs, the computers and the training. You have a $350 box you bought off the Internet. You going to win that case? Are you going to pop for a lawyer? They know its unlikely, so they will always blame the aftermarket part.

gnat

Actually not being honest with them about what you've done to the car is as uncool as them trying to blame unrelated things on it.

While unlikely, it is possible (in the case of the BSP) that it could do something weird and cause engine problems. If you simply remove it and don't disclose it, its not right to try to make PCNA pay to fix the problem.

The only time I have ever heard of cases where dealers have continued to push back after a letter from a lawyer comes is when there is a legitimate possibility that the modification is at fault. Otherwise it clears up as soon as they realize you aren't a chump.

Should this particular case get as far as such a letter, the GM is going to take it to their lawyer (who you can bet is intimately familiar with Mag-Moss) who would look at this and tell them to fix it and be done (unless he is just bilking them for legal fees). The BSP is connected to the electrical system and computer network, so it is remotely possible that it could have some impact like this, but anyone worth putting on the stand in a trial is going to know its highly unlikely and proving it would be extremely difficult and costly (which they'd only get back if they win).

You are right that many dealers will try to get over on you (and they do to many people), but they are counting on you having the fear that you are promoting.

Know what you are doing, know your legal rights, and defend them when some one tries to cheat you. I don't promote being tort happy, just showing that you have a basic legal understanding usually clears such issues up.

mcbit

From the M-M act quoted above

Needsdecaf

Exactly.

I have seen many friends (personal and internet) go down this road only to lose almost all of the time. Bottom line, it's really down to the dealer, as the dealer is the one who reports the warranty claim, and must bear the burden of trying to get reimbursed for the claim from corporate. In a sense, it's become almost as much of a shell game as medical insurance. I.E. you don't get paid unless you provide the right diagnostic code, no matter what the real fault is.

I've had legitimate issues on my car denied due to the "no codes, no problem" runaround before. To the point on my current BMW that there were so many instances of the issue I brought it in for, BMW issued a bulletin which specifically stated "perform this software upgrade if the customer complains of the problem, EVEN IF NO CODES ARE SET, PROBLEM MAY NOT RESULT IN THE SETTING OF ANY DIAGNOSTIC CODES. Boom, software updated, problem never returned. I've had techs and shop foreman told me "yes, we can see your problem, but no official fix exists so I'm not sure what to do". So, you're telling me that you acknowledge a problem, but won't fix it because you don't know how?

I say this not because it pertains directly to the discussion at hand, merely to give a glimpse of what has become the "back end" of a dealership. First thing they do is a key read (does Porsche do this too?) and tell you what faults are set. They try to get you out of there, or get you to do another service, saying "hmm, I don't see any codes set for that would relate to that problem". Before the car even hits the shop!

So when they see something that's designed to bolt onto the car and fool the computer, what do you think they're going to do? Play that "it's your fault" card all day long, because they know then you'll have to pay and they won't have to fight PCNA for the $$. Plus, once it's outside of a scheduled repair, a repair that states "you get paid 0.37 labor hours for this repair" they can charge what they want.

I don't say this to make dealers sound shady or intentionally trying to rip people off. But there is a system. Clearly some dealers know how to work within the system, some are afraid to step outside of the system, and some will bend the rules a little to get a customer to be happy. Those are the dealers you need to find.

Needsdecaf

I see your point, but I just have never seen it work this way in real life. Too many horror stories to the contrary.

I disagree about your trial point, though. Who are you going to hire to get on the stand that's more credible than a factory engineer? To a jury, who do you think they would trust - a bunch of factory trained engineers and techs that built the car? Or some random people you hired to defend your side.

Bottom line - if you want to play, you may have to pay. I have done so, but always gotten a tune or a mod that is not aggressive, so I would never run into an issue. If I did, I knew I would have to face the music if called out. I would also drive 2 hours to a dealer who was "mod friendly" and would be honest with you whether your tune / dp / exhaust / air intake had caused the problem or not.

gnat

VAG is only going to send over an engineer for a trial in extreme situations (and I would bet only for a class action level suit). For them it's simply a matter of cost and even if your entire engine needs to be replaced it is simply not going to be cost effective for them to fight it unless there is effectively no chance you can win (and then have to cover their costs). Even PCNA is only rarely going to get involved in such a dispute for the same reasons (though they are more likely than VAG).

So the reality is that you are likely only dealing with the dealer in such a case which levels the playing field considerably.

In such a trial the burden of proof (and the cost associated until they win) is on them. All you need is some reputable techs of your own (and a lawyer familiar with such cases will already have a list of people to use) to cast doubt on their claims. Mag-Mos is one of the few protections left that is still stacked in the consumer's favor.

Having to fight to that level is not easy by any means (which is why intelligent companies won't do it unless they know they will win) and can be extremely costly for the loser (e.g. the legal and expert fees on top of the original repair), but some things are worth fighting for both for yourself and for the next guy that comes behind you.

We are in absolute agreement here. Honesty and credibility is a two way street. General rule of thumb is if you can't afford to replace the potentially impacted parts yourself, you shouldn't make the modification (warranty or not). Some things like the BSP is also about playing the odds (it could cause serious engine problems if it malfunctions, but it's unlikely). In such a situation there is also no need to get adversarial. Work with them to understand why they think the modification is an issue and honestly assess the information. Generally the techs are pretty knowledgeable and should be able to give you a clear explanation of their reasoning. Then you can discuss with them why you disagree if you don't think their reasoning is sound. This specific case just sounds like the tech is clueless though and the SA is backing him up

I screwed up the electrical system in my old Escape with all the stuff I did in there. I had people trying to advise me to pull the stuff out and have the dealer fix it, but I knew that while it could be unrelated it was most likely caused by my mods. It sucked, but I sucked it up and paid for the repairs myself (after the 4th time I gave in and went back to stock and never had another issue).

My whole point with all of this is that you should A) know what your rights/protections are and B) don't shy away from defending yourself when you are correct.

mudman2

You lot obviously have not gone up against PCNA legal. Not saying I have

If you get that far, quit, just saying, they know no mercy

Anyone else who has NOT gone up against them, you know who you are

gnat

We have had a 996 since new so we know all about PCNA and lawsuits (though we have not been involved ourselves) and how they can screw us (like we'll still have to pay for our IMSB out of pocket as they got anything older than 10 years removed from the class).

Up to a point it's cost effective for them to fight having to replace all IMSBs in 911s and Boxsters which is why they fight those type of matters so hard, but as soon as it no longer saves them money they settle like any other company. The cost of eating the "cost" of reflashing canon's system doesn't compare to the cost of having a lawyer draft a Arkell v. Pressdram response (especially when you consider the costs involved of getting it to their legal team to begin with).

grohgreg

I'd like to reinforce the concept that this BSP+ could not be responsible for said failures. It's simply a device that plugs in between the ECU and both the fuel rail and turbo boost sensor. It does not change any factory ECU values, it merely increases fuel pressure at the rail, and turbo boost at the sensor. Neither the ECU nor the fuel rail nor the boost sensor are in any way/shape/form related to the Entry and Drive or Dynamic Light modules. My bet is that the tech screwed up, and the service adviser is either purposefully or ignorantly scapegoating the BSP.

There may be only a handful of BlueSparks in the US just yet, but they've been installed in thousands of Cayenne Diesels throughout the rest of the world since 2009. If issues like this actually existed, you can bet BlueSpark would have been on top of this long ago.

//greg//

gnat

I agree that the most likely issue is the tech and the least likely is the BSP, but the way all these systems are connected these days it is conceivable that if the BSP malfunctioned it could cause a cascading problem. Just read some of the threads in this forum about weird electrical issues from seemingly unassociated systems where it turns out an old battery is at fault. Its far from a probable cause, but it is in the realm of possibility (probably like being possible to win the lottery).