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Turbo lag - CayenneD vs. BMW X5d

 
Old 08-31-2012, 11:49 PM
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sclemmons
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Default Turbo lag - CayenneD vs. BMW X5d

This diesel Cayenne has captured my imagination, but I was thinking about the X5d, which I am reluctant to buy because I hate the local BMW dealer. I have a friend who has had an X5d for years (In Europe). He says the BMW biturbo diesel design has zero turbo lag, and I have understood the US model is similar. The Cayenne by comparison is not a bi turbo, but a single turbo, and I have seen reviews that say turbo lag is substantial with the Cayenne.

I have never driven either. Based on what I read, CayenneD wins the comparison test. If you have driven both, can you cast some light on the turbo lag question?
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Old 09-01-2012, 02:25 AM
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the bmw mill is definitely an award winning power plant... but the VAG engine is no slouch.
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Old 09-01-2012, 05:38 PM
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gnat
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I finally just drove a CD today and have driven the X5d a few times.

In short, I'm happy that it's the CD that I have on order (we already have a BMW and Porsche so it really was up in the air).

As far as turbo lag, there is none in either. Because diesels are inherently torquey engines compared to their petrol siblings, the turbo is primarily for top end speed. It's the torque that gets you off the line and is used when accelerating suddenly and because it's already there naturally at the low end, there is no need to wait for it. While BMW does a good job with the N55 (petrol turbo in the 1, 3, 5, and X5) there is still a bit of a lag because the base engine minus the turbo isn't that high on it's own. They did an excellent job, however, tuning it so it's torque curve is lower that you usually see which is what "hides" the lag.

Where I think the CD stands head and shoulders above the X5d is with the transmission. The X5d still has their old 6 speed slush box that is rather antiquated at this point (6 years that I know of that it has been in use) and it's shift points can be pretty rough. The CD's transmission, however, was smooth as butter and didn't hesitate or do the usual slush box "spinning" while waiting to decide shifting might be a good idea. While I got the multi-function steering wheel partially because the base wheel didn't have shift buttons (see next point), it seemed to shift well enough that I don't think I could do better than it in normal driving.

Additionally, for me anyway, the "sport" options on the X5d no longer bring you the flappy paddles for shifting while you can get steering wheels on the CD that have either the paddles or thumb switches for shifting. You can still use the gear selector to shift with, but I have yet to find any transmission that I can do that effectively in.

EDIT: Oh, and there is the ascetic issue of the BMW's interior looking old and dated since it was designed 8 years ago compared to the CD which is only a couple of years old at this point. To be fair I've never been a fan of BMW interiors as they try for the spartan look but just comes off as cheap to me.
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Old 09-01-2012, 08:20 PM
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I just traded in my x5d back in May. I had a 05 CTT that I traded in for the x5d. But I missed driving a Cayenne so much, I traded in my x5d for a new 2012 Cayenne S for my wife, and I took over her 2008 Cayenne S.

It was a great vehicle, with over a 500 mile range, and absolutely no lag. I consistently got 25-26 MPG. But it is no Porsche!!

Also, the new diesel just doesn't hae enough HP for me. I could not get less HP than the x5D with the new Cayenne Diesel. IMHO, the diesel needs a little more. That is probably why Porsche priced it similar to the V6 as an entry model.
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Old 09-02-2012, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by sclemmons View Post
The Cayenne by comparison is not a bi turbo, but a single turbo, and I have seen reviews that say turbo lag is substantial with the Cayenne.
Did the "reviews" state which model years? Because starting with the 2011, weight was reduced by a quarter ton, and the 6-speed auto was replaced by an excellent Aisin/Borg-Warger 8-speed. The engine was retuned as well. Not sure when the variable vane turbo was added, but that technology makes one turbo act like two.

I had that engine in a 2011 Touareg, and now in a 2013 Cayenne. Torque peak (advertised @ 406 ft-lbs) is reached at only 1750 rpms, and stays flat till 2750. By then, hp is at ~210, rising to the peak 240hp @ 4400 rpm. You can see the chart by clicking here, the clicking on the INFO icon at the end of the horsepower line.

Combine that with the 8 speed and the option of selecting Sport mode, and can honestly say I never experienced an iota of turbo lag in either car. Whereas everybody's perspective is different, you really need to get behind the wheel of a CD so you can see for yourself - how fast the tach needle indicates max torque RPMs. As it upshifts, you'll also see that the tranny programming takes full advantage of that 1750-2750 power band.

//greg//
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:04 AM
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driven CS & new My13 CD , the CD feels just as quick, in fact I felt it drives better than the V8.
Zero lag, its just goes!
80kmh-120kmh time is just over a second slower than the V8, in real life there is no difference, as if you're not pedal to the metal, then 1 second or even 5 seconds is irrelevant in normal driving.
The great gob of torque in the CD is what makes it so eager to go.
The newer diesel in MY12 cars, is better than the older one, faster to rev, 20kg lighter, new turbo etc. I think it doesn't go into the Toureg/Audi until next year.
When the V8 diesel comes along, well that will be a game changer and real shift in attitude.
Torque is acceleration , Hp is top speed, even Carol Shelby said "torque wins races, Hp sells cars".
I filled up our X5 4.4 today at AUD$1.71 a litre, so about $6.32 a USgallon, looking forward to diesel economy and saving of 25cents a litre as well.
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by blazing928 View Post
I filled up our X5 4.4 today at AUD$1.71 a litre, so about $6.32 a USgallon, looking forward to diesel economy and saving of 25cents a litre as well.
No kidding! I've been watching diesel vs premium at my gas station all year and it's been consistently $0.05 - $0.10USD cheaper. On Wednesday when I was there it was 3.99 vs 4.09 and Saturday it was 3.99 vs 4.25!!!

The savings is only relevant to me as far as paying for the diesel premium vs the base V6 since my current SUV just takes regular, but I am certainly looking forward to the better stability of the diesel prices.
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Old 09-03-2012, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by gnat View Post
No kidding! I've been watching diesel vs premium at my gas station all year and it's been consistently $0.05 - $0.10USD cheaper. On Wednesday when I was there it was 3.99 vs 4.09 and Saturday it was 3.99 vs 4.25!!!

The savings is only relevant to me as far as paying for the diesel premium vs the base V6 since my current SUV just takes regular, but I am certainly looking forward to the better stability of the diesel prices.
Don't know where you are at, but I wouldn't call diesel prices stable. They fluctuate through out the season at least in the Midwest. Going into fall, or harvest season, I'd expect a rise. For the most part around here, diesel will swap places with premium gas for highest price with diesel usually costing more. I often commute from Omaha to NY and the prices of diesel go up drastically as you head east. I think I filled up at over $4.55 per gallon last time in NY (May) when diesel was around $4 or a little less in Omaha.

Gone are the days when diesel cost a couple of dollars less than regular gas per gallon.
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Old 09-03-2012, 02:56 PM
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BMWs placement of the turbos really helps w/ lag. the one thing didnt like was the noisy engine.
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Old 09-03-2012, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Van1 View Post
Don't know where you are at, but I wouldn't call diesel prices stable. .
Nationally, you may have a point. But I'm pretty sure the poster was citing local or regional prices. This engine is common to the VW Touareg, the Audi Q7, and the Cayenne. The base (gasoline) V6 from each of those manufacturers requires premium grade. So the cprice comparisons should realistically be between premium gasoline and diesel fuel in those areas which the owner primarily travels.

Plus you must differentiate the cost of regular #2 diesel and the higher cetane "premium" diesel. Premium diesel is rare in my part of the country. But #2 diesel fuel has reasonably tracked premium gasoline prices for years. I'd say diesel has consistently run within + or - $0.10 cents from premium gasoline. That said - on those occasions when I find it - I don't mind the extra cost of premium diesel fuel. In the long run, it saves money.

//greg//
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Old 09-03-2012, 03:55 PM
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As for turbo lag, my Touareg V10 TDI will push you back against the seat nicely from a dead stop. If I feed the throttle in just right it will make it feel like the front end is going to come off the ground. I don't find lag to be an issue. I do find it disappointing that the Cayenne is being offered with more or less the same V6 TDI engine found in the Touareg. I would have thought that Porsche would offer something that would drastically differentiate it from the Touareg like with a V8 diesel. The VW V10 TDI was around in 2004 so I don't understand the huge step backwards with the current V6 TDI offering. I'm always on the hunt for a future replacement for my Touareg but the current Cayenne diesel is not it. It would be a big step backwards for me as far as performance.
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Old 09-03-2012, 04:10 PM
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Isn't the V10 a twin turbo? Plus, we're talking 5.0 liters here - versus 3.0 liters. Apples and oranges. And - even though the V10 is a diesel - at the expense of fuel economy. What I'd really like to see that engine in is an American half ton pickup.

And whereas the 3.0 block is shared among the Cayenne/Touareg/Q7, there are significant differences between engines. I've had two outa the three, and can see distinct external differences between the Touareg and the Cayenne. If memory serves, the CD is 0.7s faster to 60 than is the Touareg TDI - and 0.2s faster than the VR6 Cayenne.

That said, America's got a long long way to go before the diesel becomes mainstream here. I lived in Europe between 1980and 1992, so my diesel days go way back. I'm confident that a V8 diesel Cayenne could be coming this way, there's already a (Euro) Touareg 4.8l diesel that manages to deliver 340bhp (as much as the the original Cayenne S), 590lb/ft of torque (almost 20 per cent more than even the Cayenne Turbo), does o-62mph in 5.8 seconds and averages 31mpg. Look for it to be marketed here as the Cayenne Diesel S

Unfortunately, you'll just have to wait for it to eventually reach these shores.

//greg//
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Old 09-03-2012, 04:24 PM
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Yes, the V10 is a twin turbo. And, not to be too picky, it's a 4.9 liter. As for fuel economy, I've seen up to 27 mpg on the freeway at 70 mph on my trips from Omaha to NY (on Blizzaks). Not too bad for a 6000lb car.

I'd probably make a move if a V8 TDI Cayenne was available. I have heard about the V8 TDI and it is impressive with numbers exceeding my 313hp/553lb/ft V10. Until then I'll have fun drag racing new V6 TDI Cayennes in my 6 year old VW.
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Old 09-03-2012, 04:51 PM
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Mine's been in the garage while the remnants of this hurricane pass over. Ain't got but 142 miles on it. But I already found the E/T counter, so sometime in the near future I'll be able to give a real world 0-60 time. Porsche says 7.2 sec, but it feels faster to me.

And FWIW, the VW had 17.4k miles on it when I made the 2 hours drive to Nashville to pick up the Cayenne. I got 33 mpg down in the VW, 29 mpg back on the Porsche. I figure in another 17k miles, the Porsche will be up there at/over 33 as well.

//greg//
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Old 09-03-2012, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Van1 View Post
Don't know where you are at, but I wouldn't call diesel prices stable. They fluctuate through out the season at least in the Midwest. Going into fall, or harvest season, I'd expect a rise. For the most part around here, diesel will swap places with premium gas for highest price with diesel usually costing more. I often commute from Omaha to NY and the prices of diesel go up drastically as you head east. I think I filled up at over $4.55 per gallon last time in NY (May) when diesel was around $4 or a little less in Omaha.

Gone are the days when diesel cost a couple of dollars less than regular gas per gallon.
I've spent my life on the East Coast and mostly just outside DC. Yes diesel does fluctuate and always has, but (at least in the areas I've lived) it's been much more stable and slower changes than gas. Given it is only this year that I've been paying attention to diesel every time I fill up (since I knew a diesel option SUV was most likely what I was going to get), but I don't recall ever seeing diesel make a +/- $0.10 swing multiple times in a single week like I have with normal gas (talking about over the 20 years I've been driving, not just the last couple of "bad" years).

Maybe it's a difference in area like you suggest, but since it's my area where I'll be filling up the most I look forward to it and I'll take it
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