Let the flames begin...
03-27-2003, 01:20 AM
#1
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Let the flames begin...
Last week I attended the invitation only pepper "release" party at my local P-car dealer. The catering was exquisite and I found myself wandering around the 3 Cayennes on hand (along with a nice GT-2, Turbo, etc...) watching puzzled P-car owners scratching their jaws and kids climbing all over the things, wondering exactly what Porsche was thinking. One of the sales guys immediately attached himself to me as I walked in and did a decent job of guaging my interest. I asked him if test drives were in order and he said no, "these 3 are sold and scheduled for delivery tomorrow". Funny, but I noticed 2 of them sitting on the lot today, over a week later. I assume the third was on the showroom floor.
So here's my beef. I don't blame Porsche for trying to claim a piece of the ultra-luctrative (spelled $$) SUV market. To an extent, I applaud them for it as it may allow them to re-enter motorsports with the extra money they should bring in. BUT.... And it's a big BUT...
Why didn't Porsche build the ULTIMATE 3800lb, 350HP, .95G, 165MPH top end, snow conquering, SUB-$50k CROSSOVER SUV? Who the hell cares if you can traverse the Sahara in the thing. What a HUGE waste of engineering talent and resources developing 4x4 capabilities that will almost never be used by ANY Cayenne owners, while adding ~$20k to the price tag in the process.
My opinion (MINE!) is they could have introduced an ULTRA high-performance crossover SUV that would have been embraced by critics and enthusiasts alike. Picture this:
- Full time 4WD without low range and 40" of ground clearance.
- 20" wheels
- 350HP (S) 450HP (Turbo)
- 3800lbs
- 0-60 6.5 (S) 5.5 (Turbo)
- $45k (S) $55k (Turbo)
- True Porsche handling
That would have rocked the automotive world and kept in line with peoples expectations of Porsche. I'm sad to see what has become of our beloved marque.
MC
So here's my beef. I don't blame Porsche for trying to claim a piece of the ultra-luctrative (spelled $$) SUV market. To an extent, I applaud them for it as it may allow them to re-enter motorsports with the extra money they should bring in. BUT.... And it's a big BUT...
Why didn't Porsche build the ULTIMATE 3800lb, 350HP, .95G, 165MPH top end, snow conquering, SUB-$50k CROSSOVER SUV? Who the hell cares if you can traverse the Sahara in the thing. What a HUGE waste of engineering talent and resources developing 4x4 capabilities that will almost never be used by ANY Cayenne owners, while adding ~$20k to the price tag in the process.
My opinion (MINE!) is they could have introduced an ULTRA high-performance crossover SUV that would have been embraced by critics and enthusiasts alike. Picture this:
- Full time 4WD without low range and 40" of ground clearance.
- 20" wheels
- 350HP (S) 450HP (Turbo)
- 3800lbs
- 0-60 6.5 (S) 5.5 (Turbo)
- $45k (S) $55k (Turbo)
- True Porsche handling
That would have rocked the automotive world and kept in line with peoples expectations of Porsche. I'm sad to see what has become of our beloved marque.
MC
03-27-2003, 03:14 AM
#4
Aside from your subject line, there's not much "flame-worthy" here -- quite the contrary, really -- much of what you've posted has already been written by others (it's shrewd to read all the threads before pronouncing revelations...)
Aside from it being all but prohibitively expensive to build a vehicle under say 4000lbs and meet the V8 crossover segment criteria (and bear in mind the Carrera GT is a portly 3000lb) your description exists in the Infiniti FX45 (and that certainly hasn't rocked the industry) or perhaps will arrive with the Maserati in their oddly named "Kubang." Someone reading this will know the FX45 is only 315hp (not the 350 you request) but it's a V8 detuned from 340hp in the Q45. I'd imagine an after-market supercharger would have as much as a 50% gain in power and torque -- readily achievable without internal engine mods -- taking the FX to say 450hp and 500lb-ft torque.
With the exception of "True Porsche handling" (which in my opinion of Porsche performance, simply cannot arrive in anything that could ever resemble a crossover, much less an SUV) I would say the Cayenne is, on the spec sheet, a great "first version" and my only real dislike for the car is the exterior styling and maybe the quality of interior of appointments. I am glad the Porsche has off-road capabilities, a low-range gear-box, height-adjustable air suspension, 7700lb towing capacity -- these are the very features and functionality that add up to a Range Rover -- and Porsche has stamped their mark on the SUV segment by adding excellent power plants, a brilliant transmission and certainly best in class on-road handling.
What will the next version bring? Being from Porsche, you can be sure it will be incrementally better. From their very first car, this is the way they work: construct a vehicle around a concept, then work on it. Remember
Better styling? Hell, anyone can visualise the 996 Turbo headlights on that nose and the Cayenne S getting the Cayenne Turbo grill and the Cayenne Turbo getting the 996 Turbo headlights, making room for a V6 (borrowed from VW or Audi) Cayenne base model. Then take the Cayenne (basically a lifted four door sports sedan) and drop it down to be a real four door, all wheel drive, V8 sports sedan (just as BMW, with the class-defining 5 Series, releases it in the same awful body work as the new "look away lest it burn the eyes from your head" ugly 7 Series) and so it's becoming possible that Porsche will have that often-rumoured sports sedan. Then we'll see the next iteration of the 911. My guess for the 911 is a "wet" 3.8 engine pumping 400hp normally aspirated and as much as 525hp or 550hp in Turbo trim -- still leaving "head room" for the Carrera GT at 610.
Then again, maybe part of the Porsche purist in me is living in the past, after all, no matter how the Cayenne performs, it is by definition a "true Porsche." I don't expect I'll ever buy another new 911 (my last will be one or more of the '73 911S, the '98 C2S or the '97 Turbo and I'm in the process of picking up a '92 Cup car) but I fully expect to buy the Cayenne and I've owned the Boxster -- doesn't that suggest that Porsche can "live in the past" with people like me and still run a profitable business.
In the ominous words of Fred Schwab before he left Porsche Cars North America, the Cayenne is the vehicle that will generate the revenues Porsche will need "to remain independent." Is anything more important?
Aside from it being all but prohibitively expensive to build a vehicle under say 4000lbs and meet the V8 crossover segment criteria (and bear in mind the Carrera GT is a portly 3000lb) your description exists in the Infiniti FX45 (and that certainly hasn't rocked the industry) or perhaps will arrive with the Maserati in their oddly named "Kubang." Someone reading this will know the FX45 is only 315hp (not the 350 you request) but it's a V8 detuned from 340hp in the Q45. I'd imagine an after-market supercharger would have as much as a 50% gain in power and torque -- readily achievable without internal engine mods -- taking the FX to say 450hp and 500lb-ft torque.
With the exception of "True Porsche handling" (which in my opinion of Porsche performance, simply cannot arrive in anything that could ever resemble a crossover, much less an SUV) I would say the Cayenne is, on the spec sheet, a great "first version" and my only real dislike for the car is the exterior styling and maybe the quality of interior of appointments. I am glad the Porsche has off-road capabilities, a low-range gear-box, height-adjustable air suspension, 7700lb towing capacity -- these are the very features and functionality that add up to a Range Rover -- and Porsche has stamped their mark on the SUV segment by adding excellent power plants, a brilliant transmission and certainly best in class on-road handling.
What will the next version bring? Being from Porsche, you can be sure it will be incrementally better. From their very first car, this is the way they work: construct a vehicle around a concept, then work on it. Remember
Better styling? Hell, anyone can visualise the 996 Turbo headlights on that nose and the Cayenne S getting the Cayenne Turbo grill and the Cayenne Turbo getting the 996 Turbo headlights, making room for a V6 (borrowed from VW or Audi) Cayenne base model. Then take the Cayenne (basically a lifted four door sports sedan) and drop it down to be a real four door, all wheel drive, V8 sports sedan (just as BMW, with the class-defining 5 Series, releases it in the same awful body work as the new "look away lest it burn the eyes from your head" ugly 7 Series) and so it's becoming possible that Porsche will have that often-rumoured sports sedan. Then we'll see the next iteration of the 911. My guess for the 911 is a "wet" 3.8 engine pumping 400hp normally aspirated and as much as 525hp or 550hp in Turbo trim -- still leaving "head room" for the Carrera GT at 610.
Then again, maybe part of the Porsche purist in me is living in the past, after all, no matter how the Cayenne performs, it is by definition a "true Porsche." I don't expect I'll ever buy another new 911 (my last will be one or more of the '73 911S, the '98 C2S or the '97 Turbo and I'm in the process of picking up a '92 Cup car) but I fully expect to buy the Cayenne and I've owned the Boxster -- doesn't that suggest that Porsche can "live in the past" with people like me and still run a profitable business.
In the ominous words of Fred Schwab before he left Porsche Cars North America, the Cayenne is the vehicle that will generate the revenues Porsche will need "to remain independent." Is anything more important?
03-27-2003, 05:59 AM
#5
Burning Brakes
I just red German magazine "auto motor und sport". There was cayenne s (?), x5 4,6is and MB M AMG 55 group test. Cayenne was clear winner. Very through test ca 100 different aspects were assessed and elaborate analysis was done. All German cars, so not "our" versus "guest" match!
Imagine the Turbo in the same test!
Imagine the Turbo in the same test!
03-27-2003, 06:17 AM
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I went to pepper "release" party at my local P-car dealer last night.
It was better looking looking than I expected, especially the black and the dark green.
1. The grill on the 'S' looked okay. The grill on the turbo looked a little worse.
2. Leg room on both was not that good. But then its a Porsche so I suppose its acceptable in that sense but not good as a family car.
3. Head height was poor on both.
4. The build quality was poor. Bits were flimsy and plasticy.
5. Sorry but I thought that it definitely did look similar to the sante-fe from some angles.
6. It would be difficult to decide between the X5 and the Cayenne.
All in All - very nice car indeed.
It was better looking looking than I expected, especially the black and the dark green.
1. The grill on the 'S' looked okay. The grill on the turbo looked a little worse.
2. Leg room on both was not that good. But then its a Porsche so I suppose its acceptable in that sense but not good as a family car.
3. Head height was poor on both.
4. The build quality was poor. Bits were flimsy and plasticy.
5. Sorry but I thought that it definitely did look similar to the sante-fe from some angles.
6. It would be difficult to decide between the X5 and the Cayenne.
All in All - very nice car indeed.
03-27-2003, 07:36 AM
#7
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40" of ground clearance?
20" wheels?
As an engineer, I am somewhat confused!
Having worked with Porsche for the past 2 years on new vehicles, the Cayenne does everything that Porsche intended.
The only remaining question is how it will sell to Porsche's intended market.
Engineers are not very good at marketing sometimes!
20" wheels?
As an engineer, I am somewhat confused!
Having worked with Porsche for the past 2 years on new vehicles, the Cayenne does everything that Porsche intended.
The only remaining question is how it will sell to Porsche's intended market.
Engineers are not very good at marketing sometimes!
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03-27-2003, 12:47 PM
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CarreraGT, I haven't had any electrical issues. My right front fog is getting replaced because its seal has failed (water on the inside of lens). Nothing unusual as I saw a number of similar failures on the BMW lot.
I am still waiting to see if they can program the computer for me.
I am still waiting to see if they can program the computer for me.
03-28-2003, 02:42 AM
#10
re. rr '03 -- good to hear. The local service foreman said some trivial problems with high-resistance connectors were triggering fault codes. I've heard the car has had a much higher incidence of quality problems than BMW permits and there's been a three-ring circus between Land Rover, Ford and somehow involving BMW people supporting service in the field. Now that I'm starting to hear postiive reports (and the early demand has waned) I think I'm ready to talk my way into one cheaply.
Cheers,
Cheers,
03-28-2003, 09:59 AM
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I think you people that spread a bad name about and hope it wont sell, you know what will happen dont you? Porsche will probably go broke because of people like you and then you will have a insert other manufactuer here ________/porsche car. Get over it already. You 911 people that also despise my 928, well thank you for that because i am now able to have one for less than the price of a used civic.
03-29-2003, 04:54 AM
#13
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Jack '84 928s:
<strong>I think you people that spread a bad name about and hope it wont sell, you know what will happen dont you? Porsche will probably go broke because of people like you and then you will have a insert other manufactuer here ________/porsche car. Get over it already. You 911 people that also despise my 928, well thank you for that because i am now able to have one for less than the price of a used civic.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Jack, I think you've misread this thread -- read back over the comments here. Nobody is spreading anything -- with the exception perhaps of your good self. And this persecuted "911 people that also despise my 928" declaration is a surprise. I count myself amongst what I image you mean by "911 people" but I don't know you or your 928S and I certainly don't despise your car (or any 928 for that matter) although I do wonder why people would say the 928 GT is bad idea and in fact, I'm of the opinion that the 928 S4 would make an ideal vehicle for long distance chores such as a commuter vehicle.
Regardless of "911 people" whom (more correctly) may despise anything they choose to despise, I wonder what it is you can have instead of your Civic? A 928? A Cayenne?
And what is it I (and apparently others) should get over? Will we need a Cayenne to get over whatever it is you suggest we get over?
You're a perplexing individual, Jack.
ps. Hillbillies like to be known as hillbillies, not hillbillys. Please respect they're inbred, kissin'-cousin, backwoods ways. And perhaps you think they're "Wierd" or did you mean to type "Wired" or perhaps you may be simply incapable of spelling "weird;" In any case, people in glass houses should not throw stones, and I assure you that a single question mark will suffice, no matter your level of confusion.
<strong>I think you people that spread a bad name about and hope it wont sell, you know what will happen dont you? Porsche will probably go broke because of people like you and then you will have a insert other manufactuer here ________/porsche car. Get over it already. You 911 people that also despise my 928, well thank you for that because i am now able to have one for less than the price of a used civic.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Jack, I think you've misread this thread -- read back over the comments here. Nobody is spreading anything -- with the exception perhaps of your good self. And this persecuted "911 people that also despise my 928" declaration is a surprise. I count myself amongst what I image you mean by "911 people" but I don't know you or your 928S and I certainly don't despise your car (or any 928 for that matter) although I do wonder why people would say the 928 GT is bad idea and in fact, I'm of the opinion that the 928 S4 would make an ideal vehicle for long distance chores such as a commuter vehicle.
Regardless of "911 people" whom (more correctly) may despise anything they choose to despise, I wonder what it is you can have instead of your Civic? A 928? A Cayenne?
And what is it I (and apparently others) should get over? Will we need a Cayenne to get over whatever it is you suggest we get over?
You're a perplexing individual, Jack.
ps. Hillbillies like to be known as hillbillies, not hillbillys. Please respect they're inbred, kissin'-cousin, backwoods ways. And perhaps you think they're "Wierd" or did you mean to type "Wired" or perhaps you may be simply incapable of spelling "weird;" In any case, people in glass houses should not throw stones, and I assure you that a single question mark will suffice, no matter your level of confusion.
03-29-2003, 12:04 PM
#14
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Gentlemen,
This is the Cayenne forum not 911 versus 928. Please count to ten and if you have nothing constructive to say, say nothing.
I also think is it quite valuable to see the comparisons between RR, Merc, BMW SUVs etc but do not let us descend into marque slanging matches please.
Ciao,
Adrian with moderators hat on
911C4
This is the Cayenne forum not 911 versus 928. Please count to ten and if you have nothing constructive to say, say nothing.
I also think is it quite valuable to see the comparisons between RR, Merc, BMW SUVs etc but do not let us descend into marque slanging matches please.
Ciao,
Adrian with moderators hat on
911C4
03-29-2003, 12:33 PM
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Carrera GT and Adrian,
You've got to wonder what prompted Jack to even make that post. We've had a few similarly defensive Boxster and 996 owners stirring up trouble on the 993 board lately. I just don't understand why they feel so insecure about their chosen vehicles.
You can hardly go wrong with any Porsche. They are all finer pieces of engineering than 95% of the alternatives out there. Personally, I hope to add a 928 and a 968 to the stable some day.
There was a very favorable review of the Cayenne Turbo in the issue of Autocar that I received yesterday. Frankly, the journalists seemed downright amazed by its capabilities, and gave it 9 out of 10 stars - the highest of any "SUV" to date. By comparison, their second highest rated "SUV", the Range Rover, has been given 8 stars. Honestly, I think they are totally different vehicles that will appeal to buyers with different priorities.
I'm also enjoying all the first-hand reviews by Cayenne owners.
You've got to wonder what prompted Jack to even make that post. We've had a few similarly defensive Boxster and 996 owners stirring up trouble on the 993 board lately. I just don't understand why they feel so insecure about their chosen vehicles.
You can hardly go wrong with any Porsche. They are all finer pieces of engineering than 95% of the alternatives out there. Personally, I hope to add a 928 and a 968 to the stable some day.
There was a very favorable review of the Cayenne Turbo in the issue of Autocar that I received yesterday. Frankly, the journalists seemed downright amazed by its capabilities, and gave it 9 out of 10 stars - the highest of any "SUV" to date. By comparison, their second highest rated "SUV", the Range Rover, has been given 8 stars. Honestly, I think they are totally different vehicles that will appeal to buyers with different priorities.
I'm also enjoying all the first-hand reviews by Cayenne owners.