If Cayennes are only 20% Porsche and 80% VW
05-07-2003, 03:38 PM
#16
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So, if I understand the history and logic of it all. If I want something like a genuine techquipment Porsche toilet. All I really need is a Porsche employee to slap on a Porsche badge on it. 
05-07-2003, 03:54 PM
#17
Three Wheelin'
Adrian,
Yes, I knew all that, including the 500E and RS2 Avant info. Like the Cayenne, those were assembled by Porsche and substantially engineered by Porsche. By your reasoning, each is as much a Porsche as the Cayenne is. Everything is relative, and the fact remains that there is FAR more Porsche content in a 993 or 911SC than in a Cayenne. It really is a different world now, and it is one which has many disadvantages as well as advantages.
You said the Cayenne is shipped to Leipzig for "Porscherization." That term speaks volumes all by itself -- personally, I prefer Porsches that don't start life as something that needs to be "Porscherized."
Regarding the 928 (I'm a fan, by the way) being more Porsche than the 911 because the boxer engine wasn't originally a Porsche design: Porsche didn't invent the V8 either.
The Cayenne and Touareg are very nearly the same vehicle. What other vehicle is very nearly the same as a 993? The only answer is another 993.
Yes, I knew all that, including the 500E and RS2 Avant info. Like the Cayenne, those were assembled by Porsche and substantially engineered by Porsche. By your reasoning, each is as much a Porsche as the Cayenne is. Everything is relative, and the fact remains that there is FAR more Porsche content in a 993 or 911SC than in a Cayenne. It really is a different world now, and it is one which has many disadvantages as well as advantages.
You said the Cayenne is shipped to Leipzig for "Porscherization." That term speaks volumes all by itself -- personally, I prefer Porsches that don't start life as something that needs to be "Porscherized."
Regarding the 928 (I'm a fan, by the way) being more Porsche than the 911 because the boxer engine wasn't originally a Porsche design: Porsche didn't invent the V8 either.
The Cayenne and Touareg are very nearly the same vehicle. What other vehicle is very nearly the same as a 993? The only answer is another 993.
05-07-2003, 05:48 PM
#18
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Dear Todd,
The point is there is no such thing as a pure Porsche. In fact the whole concept of purity is something I personally find hard to deal with. You are claiming our 911s are pure Porsche. Ferry Porsches' favorites were his 928 station wagon and his 914/8. Ferry would tell you that every auto that carries the Christophorus or Porsche crest are purely Porsches.
The Cayenne for the record was totally designed by Porsche. They also funded the entire process. This was part of the deal with VW after Mercdes told Porsche to go away. VW provided the base from which to work and Porsche got on and did it. The base was the VW Caravelle chassis. However I believe it sort of got changed a lot. The Cayenne is a Porsche it is the third Porsche and from personal experience it is one heck of a machine. As many others are finding out. I am just not in the right pay scale to afford one.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
PS: The RS2 is more a Porsche than a Audi believe you me. You have never seen them in the USA of course but they are good.
The point is there is no such thing as a pure Porsche. In fact the whole concept of purity is something I personally find hard to deal with. You are claiming our 911s are pure Porsche. Ferry Porsches' favorites were his 928 station wagon and his 914/8. Ferry would tell you that every auto that carries the Christophorus or Porsche crest are purely Porsches.
The Cayenne for the record was totally designed by Porsche. They also funded the entire process. This was part of the deal with VW after Mercdes told Porsche to go away. VW provided the base from which to work and Porsche got on and did it. The base was the VW Caravelle chassis. However I believe it sort of got changed a lot. The Cayenne is a Porsche it is the third Porsche and from personal experience it is one heck of a machine. As many others are finding out. I am just not in the right pay scale to afford one.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
PS: The RS2 is more a Porsche than a Audi believe you me. You have never seen them in the USA of course but they are good.
05-07-2003, 06:50 PM
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Interesting discussion. I was a long-time Audi-driver who has "converted" himself into a "Peppy" (and who feels that some sort of addiction is growing the more I'm on the road with this machine).
I have not much knowledge in Porsche's history besides the fact that I always admired those cars. So I cannot add anything to these history lessons ...
But why have I bought the Cayenne and not the Touareg knowing that they have a lot in common and that the latter would have been less expensive?
Because the Cayenne is a Porsche and this is much more than a just car. It starts with fascination and emotions. And this is something I felt when I test-drove the two back to back.
Your eyes don't light up when you get into the VW ...
And if Porsche puts its badge on something with 4 wheels, they are convinced and have verified that it is worth wearing it and can live up to their standards and the requirements of their customers no matter how many pieces come from elsewhere. (not to mention all the engineering they've done themselfes). Besides, I think that the fact that VW is using a lot of the same piece is a good thing since VW has much more money to spend on testing all these materials they buy.
But what do I know, I'm just a newbie ...
I have not much knowledge in Porsche's history besides the fact that I always admired those cars. So I cannot add anything to these history lessons ...
But why have I bought the Cayenne and not the Touareg knowing that they have a lot in common and that the latter would have been less expensive?
Because the Cayenne is a Porsche and this is much more than a just car. It starts with fascination and emotions. And this is something I felt when I test-drove the two back to back.
Your eyes don't light up when you get into the VW ...
And if Porsche puts its badge on something with 4 wheels, they are convinced and have verified that it is worth wearing it and can live up to their standards and the requirements of their customers no matter how many pieces come from elsewhere. (not to mention all the engineering they've done themselfes). Besides, I think that the fact that VW is using a lot of the same piece is a good thing since VW has much more money to spend on testing all these materials they buy.
But what do I know, I'm just a newbie ...
05-07-2003, 07:41 PM
#20
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This is a minefield of a subject and in hindsight perhaps one better suited for "General Porsche Discussions" as it invariably requires an overview of the company and the cars to draw any cohesive conclusion.
Suffice to say, to all those Cayenne owners here, whether new to Porsche or existing / previous P-Car owners, your car was concieved by Porsche designed by Porsche, engineered by Porsche and developed by Porsche.
Yes it shares a platform with the VW Touareg and a good deal of the parts. The initial production process is done by VW too. But the crucial thing to remember in my mind is that without the Cayenne, the Touareg would most likely not exist - this is a very equal partnership between the two companies. The vehicles also seem to be distinctively different.
In the end, the final product is built by Porsche, rolls out of a Porsche factory and as far as I am concerned is every bit as much a Porsche as any 993. Times have changed. In the past shared components made economic sense, now the industry has moved further forward. Are Finnish constructed Boxsters any less Porsche? Does the Beetle Headlight switch in my panel beaten 911 make it a lesser creation? Not to my mind.
Having shared the costs and risks by creating a joint venture and platform the ecomomic case for joint production of the vast majority of shared components is a complete no brainer. Perhaps the question ought to be, having concieved, designed, engineered and developed the car, would it be any more a "Porsche " if it was 100% constructed in a Porsche Factory? I dont think so.
So enjoy your Porsche, Cayenne owners - it's been a huge leap in an unknown direction, taken many years and lots of money - but from what you seem to be telling us, it's a success.
Suffice to say, to all those Cayenne owners here, whether new to Porsche or existing / previous P-Car owners, your car was concieved by Porsche designed by Porsche, engineered by Porsche and developed by Porsche.
Yes it shares a platform with the VW Touareg and a good deal of the parts. The initial production process is done by VW too. But the crucial thing to remember in my mind is that without the Cayenne, the Touareg would most likely not exist - this is a very equal partnership between the two companies. The vehicles also seem to be distinctively different.
In the end, the final product is built by Porsche, rolls out of a Porsche factory and as far as I am concerned is every bit as much a Porsche as any 993. Times have changed. In the past shared components made economic sense, now the industry has moved further forward. Are Finnish constructed Boxsters any less Porsche? Does the Beetle Headlight switch in my panel beaten 911 make it a lesser creation? Not to my mind.
Having shared the costs and risks by creating a joint venture and platform the ecomomic case for joint production of the vast majority of shared components is a complete no brainer. Perhaps the question ought to be, having concieved, designed, engineered and developed the car, would it be any more a "Porsche " if it was 100% constructed in a Porsche Factory? I dont think so.
So enjoy your Porsche, Cayenne owners - it's been a huge leap in an unknown direction, taken many years and lots of money - but from what you seem to be telling us, it's a success.
05-07-2003, 11:57 PM
#21
Three Wheelin'
Adrian et al,
Please don't misunderstand me -- I never said I think the Cayenne is not a Porsche, nor that the 993 is "pure." Nevertheless, there is no comparison between the Porsche content of a 993 compared to that of a Cayenne.
Boxsters built in Finland are exactly the same as those built in Germany -- only the assembly location is different. The assembly point itself does not a Porsche make -- witness the Mercedes-Benz 500E and Audi RS2.
The Cayenne is the first "Porsche" that shares a platform with another brand of car-- much like what we fear would happen if Porsche lost its independence. This is not switchgear or electrical parts or door handles -- it's the main structure of the vehicle. The "VW/Porsche" 914, as marketed in Europe, is rather different as it had its own, unique brand, and was a "Porsche" in the US. The Boxster uses a platform that no car other than a 996 uses. No other brand used a 924/944/968 platform or a 928 platform. The 356 did not share its chassis with the Beetle. I do think that platform sharing dilutes the "Porscheness" of the vehicle, just as it dilutes the "Saabness" of the Saab 9-3 and 9-5, the "Jaguarness" of the X- and S-Type, Alfa-Romeoness, Lancianess, Cadillacness, etc. Isn't this largely why we all want Porsche to remain independent?
I know that sharing platforms can result in a good or even a great car, and huge cost savings, but something is inevitably lost in the process. That something is often intangible, but it can also be very special. It is often what makes a car interesting and unique. Sadly, I think some of this is being lost in Porsche's new cars (oops, I almost forgot -- and trucks).
Please don't misunderstand me -- I never said I think the Cayenne is not a Porsche, nor that the 993 is "pure." Nevertheless, there is no comparison between the Porsche content of a 993 compared to that of a Cayenne.
Boxsters built in Finland are exactly the same as those built in Germany -- only the assembly location is different. The assembly point itself does not a Porsche make -- witness the Mercedes-Benz 500E and Audi RS2.
The Cayenne is the first "Porsche" that shares a platform with another brand of car-- much like what we fear would happen if Porsche lost its independence. This is not switchgear or electrical parts or door handles -- it's the main structure of the vehicle. The "VW/Porsche" 914, as marketed in Europe, is rather different as it had its own, unique brand, and was a "Porsche" in the US. The Boxster uses a platform that no car other than a 996 uses. No other brand used a 924/944/968 platform or a 928 platform. The 356 did not share its chassis with the Beetle. I do think that platform sharing dilutes the "Porscheness" of the vehicle, just as it dilutes the "Saabness" of the Saab 9-3 and 9-5, the "Jaguarness" of the X- and S-Type, Alfa-Romeoness, Lancianess, Cadillacness, etc. Isn't this largely why we all want Porsche to remain independent?
I know that sharing platforms can result in a good or even a great car, and huge cost savings, but something is inevitably lost in the process. That something is often intangible, but it can also be very special. It is often what makes a car interesting and unique. Sadly, I think some of this is being lost in Porsche's new cars (oops, I almost forgot -- and trucks).
05-08-2003, 07:00 AM
#22
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adrian,
youre absolutely right. i have a 68 karmann coupe. just wondering though... you said porsche hasnt built a gear box in house since the 356.. then who built the 5 spd 901 gear box in mein 912?
those are some great interesting facts and bits you gave there! thanx, just when i thought i knew alot about the history of the company and cars, you throw more stuff in i didnt know about.
(plus when people give me **** at pca events about a 912 not being a real porsche, i can make them eat their words!) lol.
just wondering other than the mfg plant for floor pannels etc being owned by bmw, what else on the boxster isnt dont by porsche? (or isnt a porsche part)
youre absolutely right. i have a 68 karmann coupe. just wondering though... you said porsche hasnt built a gear box in house since the 356.. then who built the 5 spd 901 gear box in mein 912?
those are some great interesting facts and bits you gave there! thanx, just when i thought i knew alot about the history of the company and cars, you throw more stuff in i didnt know about.
(plus when people give me **** at pca events about a 912 not being a real porsche, i can make them eat their words!) lol.
just wondering other than the mfg plant for floor pannels etc being owned by bmw, what else on the boxster isnt dont by porsche? (or isnt a porsche part)
05-08-2003, 10:04 AM
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Welcome New Cayenne owners to the well trodden "Is it a 'real' Porsche" and "This Porsche is more 'Porsche' than that Porsche" debates. Do not despair, as Harry and Adrian have pointed out such debates have afflicted 356's, 912's, 911's, 914's........ almost since the company began.
Why? A mixture of passion, pride and perhaps insecurity - it's something other marque owners cannot quite understand let alone some of us. But rest assured, the vast majority of Porsche owners are not worried by such matters - they continue to own and love their Porsche whatever anyone else says. Independence of thought - it's something that is very "Porsche".
A note to Adrian and John D. though, perhaps as part of the Rennlist 'Charter', it ought to be agreed that these debates must take place away from the model specific forums, on neutral ground, perhaps in General sections, then specific model owners can continue 'unmolested' as it were.....
Why? A mixture of passion, pride and perhaps insecurity - it's something other marque owners cannot quite understand let alone some of us. But rest assured, the vast majority of Porsche owners are not worried by such matters - they continue to own and love their Porsche whatever anyone else says. Independence of thought - it's something that is very "Porsche".
A note to Adrian and John D. though, perhaps as part of the Rennlist 'Charter', it ought to be agreed that these debates must take place away from the model specific forums, on neutral ground, perhaps in General sections, then specific model owners can continue 'unmolested' as it were.....
05-08-2003, 11:11 AM
#24
Three Wheelin'
Christian,
No molestation was ever intended by my posts. I haven't said anything along the lines of "the Cayenne isn't a Porsche." I simply stated my view on some of the changing times. The above is all a mixture of fact and opinion, and it is all on topic -- Cayenne. Until it becomes nasty, I don't see a problem with it. These are "discussion" boards, and the above is a discussion. On the 911 and 993 boards, various "visitors" read and post from time to time. Some of it is positive and some negative, but no one (well, few people anyway) gets upset until something derogatory or deliberately provocative is said. I don't think that has happened here.
No molestation was ever intended by my posts. I haven't said anything along the lines of "the Cayenne isn't a Porsche." I simply stated my view on some of the changing times. The above is all a mixture of fact and opinion, and it is all on topic -- Cayenne. Until it becomes nasty, I don't see a problem with it. These are "discussion" boards, and the above is a discussion. On the 911 and 993 boards, various "visitors" read and post from time to time. Some of it is positive and some negative, but no one (well, few people anyway) gets upset until something derogatory or deliberately provocative is said. I don't think that has happened here.
05-08-2003, 11:38 AM
#25
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I'm amazed that I came up with such a provocative topic. I didn't think it would go on this long. I do agree with Speedraser that sharing the core structure with another company basically defeats the notion that the Cayenne is a unique truck. Sharing the chassis with another company starts a bad precedant. What next? Will Porsche design a 700 HP pick up truck using a Mercedes or Ford truck frame? After you start swapping chassis with are car companies. Doesnt your marque end up being simply reduced to a marketing exercise?
05-08-2003, 11:57 AM
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Is it my imagination, or does it seem that most of the people making an issue of the fact that the Cayenne was co-developed with VW haven't bought a new Porsche in over 5 years. Could it be that Porsche isn't terribly concerned about your opinion as you're not contributing to their cash flow?
05-08-2003, 12:41 PM
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Todd, rest assured I never intended to infer that you had set out to "molest" in your posts. I most certainly respect your opinions on this and other subjects however much I might agree or disagree with them.
I do feel strongly though that this particular section ought to be trying hard to welcome new Porsche owners rather than continuing to question the existence or worth of the Cayenne. Nothing would discourage me more, were I a new Porsche owner from contributing here. Once there are a few hundred here, I suspect they'll look after each other just fine... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Whilst the car (not truck) was yet to be released it made sense to debate anything related to it here. Now I feel that questions regarding it's position within Porsches product range or group ought to be directed towards a General Section. However, that's just my opinion as a non-Cayenne-owning enthusiast.
The debate surrounding production strategies and methods is fascinating, and is relevant to any "brand" or "marque" that produces different products over a period of time. You must admit though that there is more than a little "deja vu" when the subject rears it's ugly head around the release of a new Porsche.....
I do feel strongly though that this particular section ought to be trying hard to welcome new Porsche owners rather than continuing to question the existence or worth of the Cayenne. Nothing would discourage me more, were I a new Porsche owner from contributing here. Once there are a few hundred here, I suspect they'll look after each other just fine... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Whilst the car (not truck) was yet to be released it made sense to debate anything related to it here. Now I feel that questions regarding it's position within Porsches product range or group ought to be directed towards a General Section. However, that's just my opinion as a non-Cayenne-owning enthusiast.
The debate surrounding production strategies and methods is fascinating, and is relevant to any "brand" or "marque" that produces different products over a period of time. You must admit though that there is more than a little "deja vu" when the subject rears it's ugly head around the release of a new Porsche.....
05-08-2003, 01:36 PM
#28
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Jim, Its your imagination....Ive contributed MORE than my fair share to Porsche WITHIN the past 5 years,,,,,hell 15 years to be fair. This is too good of a conversation to be sullied by such talk.
05-08-2003, 03:08 PM
#29
Three Wheelin'
Jim,
I think Porsche should be VERY interested and concerned about my opinion, precisely because I haven't bought a new Porsche in several years. It would be extraordinarily short-sighted of them not to be. I wish I wanted to contribute to their revenue via a new car purchase, but there are many of us who prefer the older cars, and I would think that this should matter greatly. I am representative of a large number of potential new Porsche buyers (many of whom post on rennlist) who have chosen not to buy a new Porsche because we prefer the older cars to the new ones. I hope that changes, perhaps with the 997. I'm only 36, so there are several decades of potential new Porsche revenue from me -- but only if they build cars I really want. I can't imagine that they wouldn't care about my thoughts and those of people like me who represent large potential future cash flows to the company.
I think Porsche should be VERY interested and concerned about my opinion, precisely because I haven't bought a new Porsche in several years. It would be extraordinarily short-sighted of them not to be. I wish I wanted to contribute to their revenue via a new car purchase, but there are many of us who prefer the older cars, and I would think that this should matter greatly. I am representative of a large number of potential new Porsche buyers (many of whom post on rennlist) who have chosen not to buy a new Porsche because we prefer the older cars to the new ones. I hope that changes, perhaps with the 997. I'm only 36, so there are several decades of potential new Porsche revenue from me -- but only if they build cars I really want. I can't imagine that they wouldn't care about my thoughts and those of people like me who represent large potential future cash flows to the company.
05-08-2003, 03:15 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">That's right- a 1969 Volkswagen Microbus with a 996 Twin Turbo engine, transmission and suspension stuffed underneath. With the Westphalia option it's the ultimate "sleeper"- and let's face it- it IS better looking (in it own Grateful Dead way of course) and holds a lot more than the Cayenne.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Is there a webpage for this beast ??? Where can I find out more ??