Rennlisters featured in NY Times article on Cayenne
12-13-2002, 09:44 AM
#1
Addict
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Chevy Chase, MD
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rennlisters featured in NY Times article on Cayenne
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/13/automobiles/13PORS.html" target="_blank">NY Times</a>
I see that Matt (MPM in Milton, MA), Robin, Brian, RobertG, and probably other Rennlisters, are quoted in the article.
I see that Matt (MPM in Milton, MA), Robin, Brian, RobertG, and probably other Rennlisters, are quoted in the article.
12-13-2002, 09:55 AM
#3
Addict
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Chevy Chase, MD
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Okay, Scott, it's long, but ask and you shall receive, done:
New York Times
12/13/02
Automobiles/Driving
Wounded to the Quick by a Porsche Gone Astray
Image: CAR PROUD Mike Dini of La Jolla, Calif., dusting the badge on his 911, is one of a band of Porsche owners incensed by the new Porsche S.U.V.
By JASON TANZ
There is nothing so cruel as betrayal, and when the love betrayed has been as pure as Mike Dini's for Porsche, the initial shock can turn quickly to outrage. From his adolescence in Livermore, Calif., in the 1970's Mr. Dini fantasized about owning a Porsche, and in 1999, when he finally bought one — a glacier-white 911 — his joy was almost unbounded. "I stared at the crest on the steering wheel," he recalled in a telephone interview a few weeks ago from his home in La Jolla, Calif., "and said, `Am I really driving this thing?' "
And then, out of the blue, came the unthinkable. Sometime in 2000 he first heard reports that Porsche, the iconic maker of sports cars, was developing a sport utility vehicle.
His first reaction was denial. ("Oh, no," he remembered thinking. "You can't be doing this.") Then he moved onto the second stage of grieving — anger — and that is pretty much where he has stayed. "Every S.U.V. I've seen is driven by some soccer mom on her cellphone," Mr. Dini said. "I hate these people, and that Porsche would throw me into that category made me speechless. Just speechless."
Mike Dini is not alone. Since Porsche's S.U.V. project was first announced in 1999, it has been dogged by controversy. Autoextremist.com, an online automotive journal, said in October that the S.U.V., called the Cayenne, "threatens to destroy the very soul of the company." An October 2000 article in The Independent Weekly of Durham, N.C., called it "a stupid idea conceived by chimps." Even the relatively staid Car and Driver magazine referred to the Cayenne last month as "either a brilliant marketing scheme or a sure sign that The End is near." But by far the loudest cries of anguish are coming from Porsche owners.
Several were happy to be interviewed. "Everything about the Cayenne is completely the opposite of what Porsche is and does," Pete Grazaitis, a Porsche owner in Cockeysville, Md., said. "It will be the death of a tradition," Robert A. Grant, a Boxster owner in Agoura Hills, Calif.
Porsche unveiled the finished Cayenne in September at the Paris Auto Show. The car will not appear in United States showrooms until March 15, but dealers are taking orders. The company says it does not know how many have been presold but it does say that it has received expressions of interest from at least 20,000 potential buyers.
To the layman, the Cayenne seems like a car that should satisfy any Porsche fan. It looks a bit like a stretched and swollen Boxster (the relatively low-priced roadster introduced in 1997) and its turbo model, with a 450-horsepower engine, can go from a stop to 62 miles an hour in 5.6 seconds. But the Internet is clogged with the sentiments of the dissatisfied and the incensed.
Porsche fanatics have long flocked to the Web to discuss their favorite carmaker. But over the last couple of years, Porsche-related bulletin boards have become polarized group therapy sessions, as Porschephiles have hotly debated the merits of the new vehicle. Many say the money spent on it would have been better used improving racing performance. (Porsche hasn't won a trophy at Le Mans since 1998.) Even those who don't object to the S.U.V. idea have complaints — that the Cayenne is ugly, too expensive, or being released years too late.
"No other Porsche — past, present, or future — comes close to generating the kind of response that the Cayenne has," said Chuck Hammersmith, founder of Porsche Pete's Boxster Board, a Web site (www.986board.com) that draws thousands of Porsche fanatics every week. Over the last two years, Mr. Hammersmith estimates, the Boxster Board has received more than 10,000 postings about the Cayenne. Even Porsche admits, on its own Web site (www.porsche.com), that the S.U.V.'s debut is "surrounded by speculation, curiosity, and a measure of skepticism."
But what really sends Porschephiles' outrage into overdrive is the thought that Porsche has turned its back on its sports-car-loving fan base to appeal to a different breed of driver: the yuppie dilettante. And there may be no vision more heretical to a testosterone-poisoned 911 owner than that of a suburban mother loading groceries into the back of her Porsche after dropping her children off at soccer practice.
"A Porsche S.U.V. will, perhaps forever, cheapen the brand," fumed Matt Mintzer, a Milton, Mass., Porsche 911 owner and a frequent contributor to Porsche-related Internet bulletin boards. "Which demographic will this thing attract? My guess is BMW poseur types."
Robin Sun of Miami, who drives a 1996 911, picked up the argument: "People will buy these Porsche S.U.V.'s because they're a fad, and they'll embarrass the real Porsche crowd."
"They're not going to know how to drive and they'll do stupid things," he added. "It's scary to think about."
The Cayenne is the result of a scare that Porsche experienced during the recession of the early 1990's, when the company faced the very real possibility of bankruptcy. Porsche survived, but its executives were convinced that it needed to appeal to a more diverse range of car owners. "The company learned a very important lesson back in the early 90's," said Martin Peters, a Porsche spokesman. "The sports car market alone is not sufficient to maintain our security as a company."
Porsche wasn't the only car company to conclude that the growing S.U.V. market was the one to tap. "S.U.V.'s have become the new fashion statement in this business," said Chris Cedegren, an analyst at Nextrend, an automotive industry research and consulting firm in Thousand Oaks, Calif.
But unlike Cadillac or Lexus, Porsche is not a luxury-car manufacturer; it makes sports cars. And by entering the S.U.V. market, Porsche is vaulting into an entirely new business, all while trying to preserve the power of its brand. "It's a classic problem in brand management," said Nancy Koehn, a professor of business administration at Harvard Business School — and particularly difficult for brands like Porsche, whose loyal customers cling to its particular reputation and the exclusivity that comes with it. (If businesses don't manage the transition carefully, the results can be devastating. When Halston introduced a down-market clothing line for J. C. Penney in 1983, for instance, Bergdorf Goodman pulled Halston items from its shelves.)
"If I say to somebody, `I own a Porsche,' I want them to think I'm a swinger," said Al Ries, a co-author of "The 22 Immutable Laws of Branding," and a founder of Ries & Ries, marketing consultants.
To be sure, some Porsche owners have already made down payments on Cayennes, according to the company. "A lot of people love Porsches but need a bigger car," said Tony Sciple, a general manager at Champion Motors in Pompano Beach, Fla., the country's largest Porsche dealership.
And Carter Dunkin, a spokesman for the Porsche Club of America, an independent organization that receives some money from Porsche and arranges racing events for Porsche drivers, said that the club wanted to be "inclusive." But opening the club to S.U.V. owners may be too much for some Porsche enthusiasts. At least one member has posted a demand on the organization's Internet bulletin board for a vote on whether Cayenne owners should be included in club events.
Porsche has faced this dynamic — the gearhead purist versus the upwardly mobile car-polisher — before. Some fans were dismayed when, in the 1970's, Porsche developed the 914, which had a Volkswagen engine, and the 924, which was built in an Audi plant and had an engine used in tractors. (Porsche and Volkswagen worked together on the Cayenne, another sore spot.) Others refuse to recognize 911's built after 1998 as true Porsches, since that is the year that the company replaced its air-cooled engine with a water-cooled one, largely to help meet new emissions standards. Even the Boxster was originally dismissed by some purists as an entry-level wannabe.
This history causes some to view the anti-S.U.V. faction as a band of intransigent diehards.
"Most of these yahoos are so predisposed to hate the Cayenne, they can't even think straight," said Brian Rickerson, a Boxster owner in Los Angeles, in an e-mail interview. "Everything they say about the Cayenne not being a real Porsche was said about every model after the original 356, including the hallowed 911."
But Cayenne revilers like Mike Dini insist that this is a more serious breach. This time, after all, people who have no interest in driving sports cars will be able to describe themselves as Porsche owners.
In June, Mr. Dini moved up to a 911 Turbo. But he says sliding behind the wheel has already lost its thrill and glamour. "It's now like driving a Ford or a G.M.," he said. "It's just another `me-too' car company."
New York Times
12/13/02
Automobiles/Driving
Wounded to the Quick by a Porsche Gone Astray
Image: CAR PROUD Mike Dini of La Jolla, Calif., dusting the badge on his 911, is one of a band of Porsche owners incensed by the new Porsche S.U.V.
By JASON TANZ
There is nothing so cruel as betrayal, and when the love betrayed has been as pure as Mike Dini's for Porsche, the initial shock can turn quickly to outrage. From his adolescence in Livermore, Calif., in the 1970's Mr. Dini fantasized about owning a Porsche, and in 1999, when he finally bought one — a glacier-white 911 — his joy was almost unbounded. "I stared at the crest on the steering wheel," he recalled in a telephone interview a few weeks ago from his home in La Jolla, Calif., "and said, `Am I really driving this thing?' "
And then, out of the blue, came the unthinkable. Sometime in 2000 he first heard reports that Porsche, the iconic maker of sports cars, was developing a sport utility vehicle.
His first reaction was denial. ("Oh, no," he remembered thinking. "You can't be doing this.") Then he moved onto the second stage of grieving — anger — and that is pretty much where he has stayed. "Every S.U.V. I've seen is driven by some soccer mom on her cellphone," Mr. Dini said. "I hate these people, and that Porsche would throw me into that category made me speechless. Just speechless."
Mike Dini is not alone. Since Porsche's S.U.V. project was first announced in 1999, it has been dogged by controversy. Autoextremist.com, an online automotive journal, said in October that the S.U.V., called the Cayenne, "threatens to destroy the very soul of the company." An October 2000 article in The Independent Weekly of Durham, N.C., called it "a stupid idea conceived by chimps." Even the relatively staid Car and Driver magazine referred to the Cayenne last month as "either a brilliant marketing scheme or a sure sign that The End is near." But by far the loudest cries of anguish are coming from Porsche owners.
Several were happy to be interviewed. "Everything about the Cayenne is completely the opposite of what Porsche is and does," Pete Grazaitis, a Porsche owner in Cockeysville, Md., said. "It will be the death of a tradition," Robert A. Grant, a Boxster owner in Agoura Hills, Calif.
Porsche unveiled the finished Cayenne in September at the Paris Auto Show. The car will not appear in United States showrooms until March 15, but dealers are taking orders. The company says it does not know how many have been presold but it does say that it has received expressions of interest from at least 20,000 potential buyers.
To the layman, the Cayenne seems like a car that should satisfy any Porsche fan. It looks a bit like a stretched and swollen Boxster (the relatively low-priced roadster introduced in 1997) and its turbo model, with a 450-horsepower engine, can go from a stop to 62 miles an hour in 5.6 seconds. But the Internet is clogged with the sentiments of the dissatisfied and the incensed.
Porsche fanatics have long flocked to the Web to discuss their favorite carmaker. But over the last couple of years, Porsche-related bulletin boards have become polarized group therapy sessions, as Porschephiles have hotly debated the merits of the new vehicle. Many say the money spent on it would have been better used improving racing performance. (Porsche hasn't won a trophy at Le Mans since 1998.) Even those who don't object to the S.U.V. idea have complaints — that the Cayenne is ugly, too expensive, or being released years too late.
"No other Porsche — past, present, or future — comes close to generating the kind of response that the Cayenne has," said Chuck Hammersmith, founder of Porsche Pete's Boxster Board, a Web site (www.986board.com) that draws thousands of Porsche fanatics every week. Over the last two years, Mr. Hammersmith estimates, the Boxster Board has received more than 10,000 postings about the Cayenne. Even Porsche admits, on its own Web site (www.porsche.com), that the S.U.V.'s debut is "surrounded by speculation, curiosity, and a measure of skepticism."
But what really sends Porschephiles' outrage into overdrive is the thought that Porsche has turned its back on its sports-car-loving fan base to appeal to a different breed of driver: the yuppie dilettante. And there may be no vision more heretical to a testosterone-poisoned 911 owner than that of a suburban mother loading groceries into the back of her Porsche after dropping her children off at soccer practice.
"A Porsche S.U.V. will, perhaps forever, cheapen the brand," fumed Matt Mintzer, a Milton, Mass., Porsche 911 owner and a frequent contributor to Porsche-related Internet bulletin boards. "Which demographic will this thing attract? My guess is BMW poseur types."
Robin Sun of Miami, who drives a 1996 911, picked up the argument: "People will buy these Porsche S.U.V.'s because they're a fad, and they'll embarrass the real Porsche crowd."
"They're not going to know how to drive and they'll do stupid things," he added. "It's scary to think about."
The Cayenne is the result of a scare that Porsche experienced during the recession of the early 1990's, when the company faced the very real possibility of bankruptcy. Porsche survived, but its executives were convinced that it needed to appeal to a more diverse range of car owners. "The company learned a very important lesson back in the early 90's," said Martin Peters, a Porsche spokesman. "The sports car market alone is not sufficient to maintain our security as a company."
Porsche wasn't the only car company to conclude that the growing S.U.V. market was the one to tap. "S.U.V.'s have become the new fashion statement in this business," said Chris Cedegren, an analyst at Nextrend, an automotive industry research and consulting firm in Thousand Oaks, Calif.
But unlike Cadillac or Lexus, Porsche is not a luxury-car manufacturer; it makes sports cars. And by entering the S.U.V. market, Porsche is vaulting into an entirely new business, all while trying to preserve the power of its brand. "It's a classic problem in brand management," said Nancy Koehn, a professor of business administration at Harvard Business School — and particularly difficult for brands like Porsche, whose loyal customers cling to its particular reputation and the exclusivity that comes with it. (If businesses don't manage the transition carefully, the results can be devastating. When Halston introduced a down-market clothing line for J. C. Penney in 1983, for instance, Bergdorf Goodman pulled Halston items from its shelves.)
"If I say to somebody, `I own a Porsche,' I want them to think I'm a swinger," said Al Ries, a co-author of "The 22 Immutable Laws of Branding," and a founder of Ries & Ries, marketing consultants.
To be sure, some Porsche owners have already made down payments on Cayennes, according to the company. "A lot of people love Porsches but need a bigger car," said Tony Sciple, a general manager at Champion Motors in Pompano Beach, Fla., the country's largest Porsche dealership.
And Carter Dunkin, a spokesman for the Porsche Club of America, an independent organization that receives some money from Porsche and arranges racing events for Porsche drivers, said that the club wanted to be "inclusive." But opening the club to S.U.V. owners may be too much for some Porsche enthusiasts. At least one member has posted a demand on the organization's Internet bulletin board for a vote on whether Cayenne owners should be included in club events.
Porsche has faced this dynamic — the gearhead purist versus the upwardly mobile car-polisher — before. Some fans were dismayed when, in the 1970's, Porsche developed the 914, which had a Volkswagen engine, and the 924, which was built in an Audi plant and had an engine used in tractors. (Porsche and Volkswagen worked together on the Cayenne, another sore spot.) Others refuse to recognize 911's built after 1998 as true Porsches, since that is the year that the company replaced its air-cooled engine with a water-cooled one, largely to help meet new emissions standards. Even the Boxster was originally dismissed by some purists as an entry-level wannabe.
This history causes some to view the anti-S.U.V. faction as a band of intransigent diehards.
"Most of these yahoos are so predisposed to hate the Cayenne, they can't even think straight," said Brian Rickerson, a Boxster owner in Los Angeles, in an e-mail interview. "Everything they say about the Cayenne not being a real Porsche was said about every model after the original 356, including the hallowed 911."
But Cayenne revilers like Mike Dini insist that this is a more serious breach. This time, after all, people who have no interest in driving sports cars will be able to describe themselves as Porsche owners.
In June, Mr. Dini moved up to a 911 Turbo. But he says sliding behind the wheel has already lost its thrill and glamour. "It's now like driving a Ford or a G.M.," he said. "It's just another `me-too' car company."
12-13-2002, 10:37 AM
#4
Racer
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Agoura Hills
Posts: 400
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh Boy! Rennlist and Porsche Petes Boxster Board really are going to have some heavy web traffic today...........BTW,,,,,,,,WHos that Robert Grant in Agoura hills? hehehehehehe
It would be interesting to see the web stats for todays internet traffic.
It would be interesting to see the web stats for todays internet traffic.
12-13-2002, 11:59 AM
#5
Race Car
Thanks for the posting John! Good to see that this is not the only board where dissenters can voice their feelings, but that other internet boards as well have postings from Porsche owners who feel betrayed. Because betrayal it is! A SUV for pete's sake! Survival (still to be proven) at the cost of iconic image!
12-13-2002, 12:20 PM
#7
Addict
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Chevy Chase, MD
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My pleasure, Phil.
Whenever Brian comes out from hiding, we need to have a word with him about exactly what he meant by "yahoos." I'm not sure if we should be flattered or insulted.
<img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" /> or <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />
Whenever Brian comes out from hiding, we need to have a word with him about exactly what he meant by "yahoos." I'm not sure if we should be flattered or insulted.
<img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" /> or <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />
Trending Topics
12-13-2002, 12:59 PM
#8
Racer
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Agoura Hills
Posts: 400
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Brian can be found on the PPBB board, <a href="http://www.986board.com/board/986board.htm" target="_blank">http://www.986board.com/board/986board.htm</a>
the discussion on the article is pretty funny
the discussion on the article is pretty funny
12-13-2002, 01:47 PM
#9
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Lifetime Member
After the interview New York Times even sent a photographer down to Miami to take some pictures of me and my aging 993... but I guess my ugly a&* didn't make the cut.....
12-14-2002, 12:26 PM
#10
Pro
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Milton, MA
Posts: 579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well now that I've unintentionally insulted all my BMW friends, my BMW poseur types was taken a little out of context.
What I was trying to describe is those (and there seems to be a lot among the BMW crowd) who buy a car purely to impress others - that could easily apply to 911 owners and my assumption of some P-fish owners as well...
What I was trying to describe is those (and there seems to be a lot among the BMW crowd) who buy a car purely to impress others - that could easily apply to 911 owners and my assumption of some P-fish owners as well...
12-14-2002, 08:30 PM
#11
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
As a Porsche owner for many years, I am embarrassed by the article. It makes us sound like we are soooo superior.
Sorry, but the guy slips behind his 2001 Turbo and he can't get excited? What's wrong with that picture?
Who cares if Porsche made an SUV? Does that make me feel any different about my car? No!! Why should it?
Time takes care of all ills. If the SUV flops, that is not the end of Porsche. I certainly don't feel abandoned and neither should you. In a few years I am quite certain you will read that article and wonder what all the fuss was about.
I am not pro-Cayenne, but I am also not so negative about it. I just wonder what makes people feel so betrayed when nobody ever made any promises to them about the future of Porsche cars. I say, get a grip - there are more important issues in the world.
Sorry, but the guy slips behind his 2001 Turbo and he can't get excited? What's wrong with that picture?
Who cares if Porsche made an SUV? Does that make me feel any different about my car? No!! Why should it?
Time takes care of all ills. If the SUV flops, that is not the end of Porsche. I certainly don't feel abandoned and neither should you. In a few years I am quite certain you will read that article and wonder what all the fuss was about.
I am not pro-Cayenne, but I am also not so negative about it. I just wonder what makes people feel so betrayed when nobody ever made any promises to them about the future of Porsche cars. I say, get a grip - there are more important issues in the world.
12-15-2002, 11:41 PM
#13
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
So you think driving an '02 Turbo is like driving a Ford or GM? Dude - you need to recalibrate. Go visit your local Ford or GM dealer and see if that is really true.
Porsche is still one of the world's finest manufacturer of high performance automobiles. Nothing has changed.
Porsche is still one of the world's finest manufacturer of high performance automobiles. Nothing has changed.
12-16-2002, 01:30 PM
#14
Advanced
"Porsche is still one of the world's finest manufacturers of high performance automobiles. Nothing has changed. "
Do you really think that?
I argue you have been blinded by the (now dead and decaying) Porsche mystique and marketing. Ferrari is winning F1. Audi is winning Le Mans. Porsche is making an SUV to cater to the soccer-mom-on-a-cell-phone crowd. The Z06 is as fast as my TT and WAY faster than a Boxster. What am I missing?
Sir -- You need to recalibrate. The company ‘Porsche’ that you think still exists, is dead. The race engineers have left the building and accountants are taking the trash out.
Do you really think that?
I argue you have been blinded by the (now dead and decaying) Porsche mystique and marketing. Ferrari is winning F1. Audi is winning Le Mans. Porsche is making an SUV to cater to the soccer-mom-on-a-cell-phone crowd. The Z06 is as fast as my TT and WAY faster than a Boxster. What am I missing?
Sir -- You need to recalibrate. The company ‘Porsche’ that you think still exists, is dead. The race engineers have left the building and accountants are taking the trash out.