Just when you thought the Pepper couldnt look any FUGLIER

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01-25-2003 | 03:30 AM

#46

ked

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From: Hsv AL

FF: I (for one) do not believe that the C will save PAG. Nor do I believe it will kill it. I guess we should leave it the Racing Dept. staff to tell us of their current job satisfaction. I could imagine that working on what is a "new era" Porsche powerplant & (possible) future LeMans winner might not be so bad... not to mention having ANY job these days. Do you think they are having problems filling positions?

Anyway - get a good drive in this weekend for those of us who can only stare at our cars in cold storage.

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01-25-2003 | 09:55 AM

#47

John H. in DC Area

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<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Kevin E Davis:
John S: Good insight, you have captured a basic aspect of Porsche owner-enthusiast behavior. "Reducio ad Absurdum" in a worthy cause. Porsches are perhaps the most passionately "supported" specific products in history. That is why there is so much detailed knowledge of the cars and helpful experts here & on Pelican.

This comes from Dr. Porsche and was carried through by his kids & grandkids. I am convinced that attitude was-is reflected by the PAG designers, engineers & production line workers. And of course the Racing Dept. That care & understanding of detail was a big part of Porsche slaying the giants (Ferrari & Ford) and the specialists (McLaren). Fear that those days are past & will never return is the basis of much of the angst that drives the C debate.
<hr /></blockquote>I agree, Kevin, well said. However, with respect to this post:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Kevin E. Davis:
 I guess we should leave it the Racing Dept. staff to tell us of their current job satisfaction. I could imagine that working on what is a "new era" Porsche powerplant & (possible) future LeMans winner might not be so bad... not to mention having ANY job these days. Do you think they are having problems filling positions?<hr /></blockquote>… I have read interviews of Norbert Singer and Herbert Ampferer over the last two years and, though their remarks were neatly tailored to express support for the Cayenne, they also clearly stated that they had lost racing engineers and technicians over time, and there was an acknowledgement that significant effort will need to be expended if they decide to ramp up a fully-staffed, top flight racing department again. In addition, as far as I understand, Singer et al. have worked on certain parts of the Carrera GT project, but no one is working on a Le Mans winner right now. Porsche have merely formed a committee to study whether to return and, if so, in what forum. Of course, the GT3 customer support and development program is ongoing, but I don't believe any race engineers are burning the midnight oil working on the next greatest racing vehicle. Singer stated that he will likely retire in a year. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

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01-25-2003 | 03:59 PM

#48

mpm '95 C4

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01-26-2003 | 10:17 AM

#49

Christian S.

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<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by John from WA:
Christian,

I think most people would agree that the 993 model cars had better quality interiors and engines than the 996 models. <hr /></blockquote>I would agree wholeheartedly about the interior quality difference John, some used 996's I've seen, especially with metal trim options have not stood up well to use.

The engine is an emotional one thanks to the air / water issue. However, considering the latest emission and noise regulations the change was a no-brainer - I would argue that given the change, the engines are pretty good.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />It is starting to sound as if you think the only sports car left in the world is Porsche, or maybe the only decent one.
That is too bad as it seems to me that over the last few years and coming in the next few years we are going to have the best variety of sports cars ever. <hr /></blockquote>Yes and no..... I'm well aware that my postings here might make me read like a "Porsche walks on water type" but that's not my angle at all. I may be guilty of standing up for the underdog a little too often, but I'd like to think that I've got at least a slightly educated opinion on most of what I write. I do reserve the right to be wrong occasionally... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

At the moment I would argue that Porsche produces the best daily usable, affordable, high performance sports cars and supercar. This may change over the coming years, Maserati may improve, the new Aston might stay together for more than 1000 miles (and if it did and I could afford one, I'd be seriously tempted) TVR's might gain better relaiblilty, BMW and Merc might produce "sports cars" that actually perform. But right now Porsche leads the Boxster class and has little or no competition for it's 996 range.

Bugatti, Ferrari, Paganini, Mercedes/Mclaren. Lamborghini - these are wonderful creations, but well beyond 99.99% of the worlds population in terms of price and production numbers. I would love a Ferrari, my family had Scotland's first dealership in the 70's and my childhood memories mean that they are almost in my blood. However, I doubt I'll ever be able to afford one, especially as it would have to be an "extra" car which would not and could not be used every day.

I love all sports cars - some more than others. I strenuously believe that the current range of Porsche should be given more credit than they are by some of the purist brigade. They are class leading modern vehicles, outperforming their competition - not perfect by any means, but when has any vehicle been....??

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01-26-2003 | 12:26 PM

#50

ked

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From: Hsv AL

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mpm '95 C4:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by John H. in DC Area:
Singer stated that he will likely retire in a year.

<hr /></blockquote>Another loss to the Porsche racing faithful... <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>The management of Porsche's Racing Program deserve a great deal of recognition for their tremendous accomplishments over decades. Now that they are reaching retirement does not necessarily mean the end of Racing, maybe just the end of a storied Era. A robust program evolves, gains new staff, and overcomes the loss of talent. Maybe new blood will usher in a new era in Racing at Porsche. That is what we expect - we shall see.

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01-26-2003 | 12:42 PM

#51

mpm '95 C4

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<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Christian Stewart:
 The engine is an emotional one thanks to the air / water issue. However, considering the latest emission and noise regulations the change was a no-brainer - I would argue that given the change, the engines are pretty good...<hr /></blockquote>Totally agree, water cooling was the only option Porsche had, and after the initial melt downs, the water pumpers seem to hold up the Porsche tradition.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I strenuously believe that the current range of Porsche should be given more credit than they are by some of the purist brigade. They are class leading modern vehicles, outperforming their competition - not perfect by any means, but when has any vehicle been....?? <hr /></blockquote>Absolutely, I've always reveled in holding Porsche out as an example of people who love what they do - and prove it in the race inspired products that they consistently deliver. Has there ever been a Porsche product that the factory hasn't raced? (Oh right, I think that would be the Boxster, (I think?) the 996 and now the P-fish <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) For me (fairly or not), factory racing has created a matter of higher expectations of Porsche - that Porsche will always reach beyond the norm. Building an SUV seems so, so...pedestrian.

This whole SUV affair has become a sad chapter for a once proud racing tradition. Its creation has created doubt about the future of its independence. And leads us to the question, will this be Porsche's last chapter?

Current management seems hell bent on making Porsche into a "me too" automobile manufacturer. I understand the need to expand, but betting the ranch (on an SUV to boot) seems short sighted at best. At worst, this product is way to late to the market, targeted at too narrow of a price point, has a "value buy" alternative in the T-egg, and is shod in "dowdy" sheet metal.

Hopefully Wiedeking will sell every last stink'n one of them...

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01-26-2003 | 01:00 PM

#52

Christian S.

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<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mpm '95 C4:
And leads us to the question, will this be Porsche's last chapter?<hr /></blockquote>You've got me worried mpm - stiff drink required, relax, take a load off.... repeat after me .... it's going to be OK, it's going to be OK...!!

There's cash in the bank, regardless of the Cayenne's success or not - the company has never been in better financial health. The 997 facelift / replacement is in the pipeline with good feedback about it, the Carrera V10 is about to be released too. The financial independence and strength of the company means that the 997 and Boxster replacements can be a complete "ground upwards" designs with no platform sharing with existing or outside platforms.

I may be a hopeless optimist, but I think things are looking good - they're even talking about increasing their racing programme..... <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

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01-26-2003 | 01:08 PM

#53

mpm '95 C4

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<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Christian Stewart:
There's cash in the bank, regardless of the Cayenne's success or not - the company has never been in better financial health. The 997 facelift / replacement is in the pipeline with good feedback about it, the Carrera V10 is about to be released too. The financial independence and strength of the company means that the 997 and Boxster replacements can be a complete "ground upwards" designs with no platform sharing with existing or outside platforms.<hr /></blockquote>Good news indeed! No worries, I'm just in my first week of P-car withdrawal

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01-26-2003 | 01:21 PM

#54

mpm '95 C4

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<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Kevin E Davis:
The management of Porsche's Racing Program deserve a great deal of recognition for their tremendous accomplishments over decades. Now that they are reaching retirement does not necessarily mean the end of Racing, maybe just the end of a storied Era. A robust program evolves, gains new staff, and overcomes the loss of talent. Maybe new blood will usher in a new era in Racing at Porsche. That is what we expect - we shall see.<hr /></blockquote><img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> to that Kevin!

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01-26-2003 | 03:21 PM

#55

John from WA

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Christian,

I think the 996 Turbo and GT3 engines are standouts... but they were based on the 993 motor. In the past the motors they raced were what they put in there production cars, now they only put they good ones in the upper end of the lines. Makes you imagine a conversation in the board room of how to "lower quality" to save money like Toyota did a few years back. Not a fatal change... but it is a knick in the armor so to speak.

I agree, today Porsche is the only affordable daily driver supercar. But I will bet a nice bottle of Oban that it is changing and we will have a plethoria of choices within the next few years. That new Aston is going to be priced against the Carrera and we all know the Brits design great race cars (it's been the production cars that have suffered).

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01-26-2003 | 04:33 PM

#56

Christian S.

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John,

A bit of a chicken and egg quandary - racing motors and production car motors - which came first? I'm afraid I'd have to say historically that the production car motor design preceded any racing development, but maybe I've got my history wrong. Not sure what's wrong with the stock 996 engine, 3.4 or 3.6 - or the suggestion that Porsche "agreed" to lower the quality? As with any brand new design one heard of initial problems - but as far as I know they're pretty bulletproof - maybe not so under extreme tracking - but I'm afraid I don't have any experience of tracking 996's.

As for the bottle of Oban, glad to open one regardless of Aston's future success (I'm in the Bar business

) just need to find somewhere to share it - Le Mans? <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

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01-26-2003 | 06:38 PM

#57

mpm '95 C4

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<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by John from WA:
I think the 996 Turbo and GT3 engines are standouts... but they were based on the 993 motor.
<hr /></blockquote>Actually, I think the GT1 water pumping twin turbo 3.2L is the pre-curser to the 996 twin, and started as a 959.

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01-26-2003 | 06:50 PM

#58

John from WA

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Christian,

Meeting up in LeMans sounds great. But I think it will have to be 2004 for me (going to Italy late spring, can't do two big trips). And I'll bring the scotch, unless you have a bottle of unobtainium

Of course I will rely on you to help me figure it all out, seats, pits, best places to stay, eat, etc...
After all us yanks are a little nervous about international travel right now (but going to LA doesn't faze us, go figure).

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01-26-2003 | 07:52 PM

#59

Christian S.

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<hr /></blockquote>Unobtainium our speciality <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> We even sourced Enzo Ferrari some unobtainable water of life once... but that's another story, let alone a different Forum <img border="0" alt="[nono]" title="" src="graemlins/nono.gif" />

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01-26-2003 | 08:05 PM

#60

Christian S.

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