Okay, dealer intro attendees, I'll go first, please chime in ...
03-14-2003, 11:16 PM
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Okay, dealer intro attendees, I'll go first, please chime in ...
I'm sure this scene is being repeated all over the country today and tomorrow. I went to the Porsche of Arlington unveiling of the Cayenne tonight. There was a nice crowd there, plenty of children. They raffled off numerous Cayenne items including five Cayenne t-shirts, a Cayenne teddy bear, a Cayenne remote controlled car, and a steak dinner at Morton's. My wife and I were crossing our fingers and toes in hopes that we wouldn't win any of the Cayenne stuff, just the Morton's dinner ... didn't happen.
There was enough buzz at this event for me to feel confident that the Cayenne will sell very well in its first year. People were actually talking to the sales staff about ordering them.
These are just my sober opinions, I'm not passing them off as unassailable facts, so feel free to chime in with your own opinions.
At 6:15pm, they pulled the covers off of three Cayennes ...
1. The Cayenne does not look any different in person to me than it did in the pictures. If anything, it looks a little smaller, and very very rounded at every corner and at every pillar. I did not have the "boy, this looks much much better in person than in pictures" feeling that I'm hearing others describe. Something must be wrong with me. It did not look more aggressive, it did not look sleeker, it did not instantly evoke excitment. Maybe I'm just numb to the excitement of SUVs. That would seem like a more rational proposition to me than that people truly think the Cayenne is "beautiful" or "very aggressive." Pleasant for an SUV? Maybe. But an evocative vehicle? Nope. An evocative Porsche? Hell no. Again, please state otherwise if you feel so, but I just don't see it.
2. The base wheels on the Cayenne S couldn't possibly look like a cheaper, more generic wheel design. Definitely very un-Porsche-like. Major bummer, can't say it enough.
3. There are acres and acres of painted silver items -- headlight surrounds, window trim, door trim, roof rack, lower door trim, rear hatch trim, dash trim, air vent trim, dial surrounds, gear shift levers, drive train switches, and I could still go on and on. It is instantly recognizable as not very aluminum, but mostly painted plastic. It's not even close. I find aluminum to be interesting when used as an accent, but it's so omnipresent in the Cayenne that the exterior and the interior look almost two-tone.
4. The interior dash and door materials, though synthetic, have a textured feel that is nice to the touch. Although this material feels good, it cannot be mistaken for opulence. I choose to believe that Porsche aimed for and achieved a minimalist and utilitarian feel, as opposed to a high-end luxury feel, because it's not even close. For all you folks (dealers?) who say the interior is the most luxurious in the SUV class, I (jokingly) say you must be smoking crack. I can find five or six other SUVs, domestic and foreign, (and leaving out the class-leading Range Rover) that have interiors that feel more opulent. It's also possible that the light colored interiors just come across as less substantial. There's no sense of gravitas. Things are nicely arrayed on the dash, the layout is pleasing to the eye. The font used for the numbers and letters of the dials seems more generic than the nice styling of Porsche dials of the past, including the 996 series.
5. Seat room in front and back seems average to above average.
6. The rear hatch/storage area is average for the wagon class, below average for true SUVs.
7. I'm in the stretch run of deciding on our next all purpose vehicle. Right now the Audi Allroad is narrowly in the lead over the X5. I may still go through with the Cayenne test drive tomorrow.
I did experience a momentary rise of my blood pressure tonight. It came when I walked outside and saw a Cayenne with a trailer hitched to the back, and it was supporting a black on black 911 GT2! A milisecond after seeing the GT2, my heart started beating faster, I broke away from my wife, I yanked my little camera out of my blazer pocket, I started thinking of finance rates and bag lunches, and started fawning all over this thing ... honestly, for at least 20 minutes. Forgot all about the Cayenne. One of the service guys who has worked on my car in the past came up and saw me drooling over the GT2. He said the current owner bought it second hand, for $170,000! If these tall wagons are sold out for the rest of the year
and they yield cash enabling Porsche to create additional lust-worthy objects like the GT2 and to return to racing, then I'll continue to be a happy Porsche-phile.
<img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/CayenneandGT2.jpg" alt=" - " />
All the best to you current and future Cayenne owners.
There was enough buzz at this event for me to feel confident that the Cayenne will sell very well in its first year. People were actually talking to the sales staff about ordering them.
These are just my sober opinions, I'm not passing them off as unassailable facts, so feel free to chime in with your own opinions.
At 6:15pm, they pulled the covers off of three Cayennes ...
1. The Cayenne does not look any different in person to me than it did in the pictures. If anything, it looks a little smaller, and very very rounded at every corner and at every pillar. I did not have the "boy, this looks much much better in person than in pictures" feeling that I'm hearing others describe. Something must be wrong with me. It did not look more aggressive, it did not look sleeker, it did not instantly evoke excitment. Maybe I'm just numb to the excitement of SUVs. That would seem like a more rational proposition to me than that people truly think the Cayenne is "beautiful" or "very aggressive." Pleasant for an SUV? Maybe. But an evocative vehicle? Nope. An evocative Porsche? Hell no. Again, please state otherwise if you feel so, but I just don't see it.
2. The base wheels on the Cayenne S couldn't possibly look like a cheaper, more generic wheel design. Definitely very un-Porsche-like. Major bummer, can't say it enough.
3. There are acres and acres of painted silver items -- headlight surrounds, window trim, door trim, roof rack, lower door trim, rear hatch trim, dash trim, air vent trim, dial surrounds, gear shift levers, drive train switches, and I could still go on and on. It is instantly recognizable as not very aluminum, but mostly painted plastic. It's not even close. I find aluminum to be interesting when used as an accent, but it's so omnipresent in the Cayenne that the exterior and the interior look almost two-tone.
4. The interior dash and door materials, though synthetic, have a textured feel that is nice to the touch. Although this material feels good, it cannot be mistaken for opulence. I choose to believe that Porsche aimed for and achieved a minimalist and utilitarian feel, as opposed to a high-end luxury feel, because it's not even close. For all you folks (dealers?) who say the interior is the most luxurious in the SUV class, I (jokingly) say you must be smoking crack. I can find five or six other SUVs, domestic and foreign, (and leaving out the class-leading Range Rover) that have interiors that feel more opulent. It's also possible that the light colored interiors just come across as less substantial. There's no sense of gravitas. Things are nicely arrayed on the dash, the layout is pleasing to the eye. The font used for the numbers and letters of the dials seems more generic than the nice styling of Porsche dials of the past, including the 996 series.
5. Seat room in front and back seems average to above average.
6. The rear hatch/storage area is average for the wagon class, below average for true SUVs.
7. I'm in the stretch run of deciding on our next all purpose vehicle. Right now the Audi Allroad is narrowly in the lead over the X5. I may still go through with the Cayenne test drive tomorrow.
I did experience a momentary rise of my blood pressure tonight. It came when I walked outside and saw a Cayenne with a trailer hitched to the back, and it was supporting a black on black 911 GT2! A milisecond after seeing the GT2, my heart started beating faster, I broke away from my wife, I yanked my little camera out of my blazer pocket, I started thinking of finance rates and bag lunches, and started fawning all over this thing ... honestly, for at least 20 minutes. Forgot all about the Cayenne. One of the service guys who has worked on my car in the past came up and saw me drooling over the GT2. He said the current owner bought it second hand, for $170,000! If these tall wagons are sold out for the rest of the year
and they yield cash enabling Porsche to create additional lust-worthy objects like the GT2 and to return to racing, then I'll continue to be a happy Porsche-phile.<img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/CayenneandGT2.jpg" alt=" - " />
All the best to you current and future Cayenne owners.
03-14-2003, 11:46 PM
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John,
Nice write-up. I keep trying to think of a previous car that looked awful in pics, but great in person (since this is the recurrent theme with the Cayenne). I can't think of a single example.
OTOH, I can think of lots of cars that looked wonderful in photos, and even better in person.
I'm sure the test drive will be more inspiring. At least, you can't see it when you're driving. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Nice write-up. I keep trying to think of a previous car that looked awful in pics, but great in person (since this is the recurrent theme with the Cayenne). I can't think of a single example.
OTOH, I can think of lots of cars that looked wonderful in photos, and even better in person.
I'm sure the test drive will be more inspiring. At least, you can't see it when you're driving. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
03-15-2003, 02:27 AM
#3
Three Wheelin'
I saw them at the dealer today, though the "unveiling" is tomorrow. Admittedly, I am not a fan of the idea of a Porsche SUV, but I looked at it really hoping to at least be impressed -- I was not. It could have impressed me from an aesthetic or quality standpoint, but it simply did not.
John H, I agree with your overall assessment. It looks just like it does in the pictures. I actually don't think it's especially ugly, but neither do I find it appealing at all.
I think the silver-painted plastic looks CHEAP. I truly expected it to be much more impressive based on the generally positive press about the interior (turns out, those who did criticize it were right on, IMO). The texture of the upper-dash plastics was a bit course for my taste, but that could be very subjective. The silver-painted plastic just looks awful. If one looks closely, the seams from the plastic molds is quite visible on many of the plastic pieces. The plastic between the top of the steering column and the bottom of the instrument display had one of those extra plastic remnants sticking up -- like the parts of the old plastic model cars I built when I was a kid!
The window rattled in the door when the door was closed -- not the solid sound I wanted to hear.
I really wanted to be impressed by the quality at least, hoping it would bode well for the 997. In all honesty, I'm not encouraged. The Cayennes I saw were nice, but in no way did they seem special.
John H, the GT2 is a sweet ride, and they didn't need $$ from the Cayenne to build it -- they made that $$ on sports cars. FWIW, I like your 993 TT better.
John H, I agree with your overall assessment. It looks just like it does in the pictures. I actually don't think it's especially ugly, but neither do I find it appealing at all.
I think the silver-painted plastic looks CHEAP. I truly expected it to be much more impressive based on the generally positive press about the interior (turns out, those who did criticize it were right on, IMO). The texture of the upper-dash plastics was a bit course for my taste, but that could be very subjective. The silver-painted plastic just looks awful. If one looks closely, the seams from the plastic molds is quite visible on many of the plastic pieces. The plastic between the top of the steering column and the bottom of the instrument display had one of those extra plastic remnants sticking up -- like the parts of the old plastic model cars I built when I was a kid!
The window rattled in the door when the door was closed -- not the solid sound I wanted to hear. I really wanted to be impressed by the quality at least, hoping it would bode well for the 997. In all honesty, I'm not encouraged. The Cayennes I saw were nice, but in no way did they seem special.
John H, the GT2 is a sweet ride, and they didn't need $$ from the Cayenne to build it -- they made that $$ on sports cars. FWIW, I like your 993 TT better.
03-15-2003, 09:55 AM
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And today's award for sarcasm goes to:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> You guys are way too picky; what do you expect for $68,000? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> You guys are way too picky; what do you expect for $68,000? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">
03-15-2003, 10:58 AM
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The drop in interior trim / build quality among many German manufacturers is pretty interesting, especially since this is one of the areas in which the German automakers established their reputation for excellence.
Examples include: (1) the awful fakey-aluminum trim in the BMW M5, (2) the hard plastics in the 1999 Boxster and 996, (3) the substandard velour, minivan-quality headliner in the Mercedes S500, (4) broken switches in my Mercedes S500 within the first two months of ownership.
It seems that only Audi has really kept trim quality as a priority in recent years. Maybe, the German manufacturers' marketing analysis shows that folks will still buy the cars regardless of how many cheap plastic (or "composite" ) parts are put into the vehicle. However, in the long run, I'm pretty sure that this practice will takes it toll on the overall reputation of the German car industry.
Examples include: (1) the awful fakey-aluminum trim in the BMW M5, (2) the hard plastics in the 1999 Boxster and 996, (3) the substandard velour, minivan-quality headliner in the Mercedes S500, (4) broken switches in my Mercedes S500 within the first two months of ownership.
It seems that only Audi has really kept trim quality as a priority in recent years. Maybe, the German manufacturers' marketing analysis shows that folks will still buy the cars regardless of how many cheap plastic (or "composite"
) parts are put into the vehicle. However, in the long run, I'm pretty sure that this practice will takes it toll on the overall reputation of the German car industry.
03-15-2003, 11:07 AM
#7
John H, I agree with all of your comments and observations. I posted some thoughts on the Cayenne last night comparing it to the FX 45 (which also lacks the build quality we want but makes up for it in performance.
I will share this with you...I leased a 2001 Audi Allroad last year. I had planned on giving an employee my Land Cruiser to use till the lease was up.
I read everything I could about the Allroad on the Audiworld boards..I probably read 100 positive rave reports to every 1 with any negative...
I should have listened to the negative...
The turbo lag REALLY sucks..I just could not get used to it. Once you are on the highway it is fine (in fact amazing!) but for driving on streets I found the Audi infuriating and even daresay...uh oh..dangerous. It is beyond just turbo lag. This thing just shuts down sometimes..Like a glitch in the computer programming.
I was really disappointed because build wise it is first rate. IT is amazing in the snow and rain and looks really good. All this for $500 per month, zero down, 39 month lease.
I quickly took back my Land Cruiser and never looked back at the Allroad. My employee loves the Audi but agrees about the Turbo lag..
Mark
I will share this with you...I leased a 2001 Audi Allroad last year. I had planned on giving an employee my Land Cruiser to use till the lease was up.
I read everything I could about the Allroad on the Audiworld boards..I probably read 100 positive rave reports to every 1 with any negative...
I should have listened to the negative...
The turbo lag REALLY sucks..I just could not get used to it. Once you are on the highway it is fine (in fact amazing!) but for driving on streets I found the Audi infuriating and even daresay...uh oh..dangerous. It is beyond just turbo lag. This thing just shuts down sometimes..Like a glitch in the computer programming.
I was really disappointed because build wise it is first rate. IT is amazing in the snow and rain and looks really good. All this for $500 per month, zero down, 39 month lease.
I quickly took back my Land Cruiser and never looked back at the Allroad. My employee loves the Audi but agrees about the Turbo lag..
Mark
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03-15-2003, 11:37 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by controlit:
<strong>
The turbo lag REALLY sucks..I just could not get used to it. Once you are on the highway it is fine (in fact amazing!) but for driving on streets I found the Audi infuriating and even daresay...uh oh..dangerous. It is beyond just turbo lag. This thing just shuts down sometimes..Like a glitch in the computer programming.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Actually, it is tip lag, not turbo lag. The 2.7T engine has two small turbos that spool and dump with nary a hint of lag. There have been reports of the auto box hesitation if you slow at say a stop sign, and then punch it. The way around that is keeping it in tip mode (we have thumb switches on the wheel - that being a heated wheel
).
But I drive my other cars aggressively, the allroad is the cruiser, and after a year (and particularly this winter) my standing comment is if I were forced into one car it be an allroad.
BTW John, great write up I'm on my way to see John in Nashua, NH in an hour.
<strong>
The turbo lag REALLY sucks..I just could not get used to it. Once you are on the highway it is fine (in fact amazing!) but for driving on streets I found the Audi infuriating and even daresay...uh oh..dangerous. It is beyond just turbo lag. This thing just shuts down sometimes..Like a glitch in the computer programming.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Actually, it is tip lag, not turbo lag. The 2.7T engine has two small turbos that spool and dump with nary a hint of lag. There have been reports of the auto box hesitation if you slow at say a stop sign, and then punch it. The way around that is keeping it in tip mode (we have thumb switches on the wheel - that being a heated wheel
).But I drive my other cars aggressively, the allroad is the cruiser, and after a year (and particularly this winter) my standing comment is if I were forced into one car it be an allroad.
BTW John, great write up I'm on my way to see John in Nashua, NH in an hour.
03-15-2003, 11:39 AM
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mpm may be right, because our M3 SMG was really bad about this type of around-town, slow speed lag as well. One of the reasons I'm not a fan of electronic, computer-controlled clutches.
03-15-2003, 01:29 PM
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some pics from yesterday at the dealer:
I thought the dk blue was nice: <img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/107-0783_IMG.JPG" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/107-0784_IMG.JPG" alt=" - " />
which of those wheels did ya not like, I think the blue ones are worse.
<img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/107-0787_IMG.JPG" alt=" - " />
They were really cool about letting me take all the pics I wanted. the one I sat in was an s that sticker around 71K, it had full leather and overall, I liked the interior, not as plasticky as a boxster, but the alum fake trim may be a bit much. The way the radio came on was cool: <img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/107-0795_IMG.JPG" alt=" - " />
the underbody detail was nice, the muffler is very nicely finished, the pic I took is too big. I also thought the rear seat room was great and comfortable. Also the rear hatch and separate glass hatch is a great idea: <img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/107-0790_IMG.JPG" alt=" - " />
The brakes are also incredible, look like 6 pistons, even on the S. There was a turbo there, but it was sold, 96K. the guys were sitting in it playing with the air suspension. <img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/107-0793_IMG.JPG" alt=" - " />
Also had a 911 treat in house, lapis blue TTX50 with the PCCB, sticker was 148,045, gorgeous car, still available. <img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/108-0803_IMG.JPG" alt=" - " />
I would love to drive a 4.6is and C-S back to back and see what the differences felt like, then I think the decision could be made. I think they will sell them well.
jason
I thought the dk blue was nice: <img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/107-0783_IMG.JPG" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/107-0784_IMG.JPG" alt=" - " />
which of those wheels did ya not like, I think the blue ones are worse.
<img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/107-0787_IMG.JPG" alt=" - " />
They were really cool about letting me take all the pics I wanted. the one I sat in was an s that sticker around 71K, it had full leather and overall, I liked the interior, not as plasticky as a boxster, but the alum fake trim may be a bit much. The way the radio came on was cool: <img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/107-0795_IMG.JPG" alt=" - " />
the underbody detail was nice, the muffler is very nicely finished, the pic I took is too big. I also thought the rear seat room was great and comfortable. Also the rear hatch and separate glass hatch is a great idea: <img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/107-0790_IMG.JPG" alt=" - " />
The brakes are also incredible, look like 6 pistons, even on the S. There was a turbo there, but it was sold, 96K. the guys were sitting in it playing with the air suspension. <img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/107-0793_IMG.JPG" alt=" - " />
Also had a 911 treat in house, lapis blue TTX50 with the PCCB, sticker was 148,045, gorgeous car, still available. <img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/108-0803_IMG.JPG" alt=" - " />
I would love to drive a 4.6is and C-S back to back and see what the differences felt like, then I think the decision could be made. I think they will sell them well.
jason
03-15-2003, 03:25 PM
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My wife drove the Cayenne S this morning in New Jersey - very nice SUV, excellent acceleration. We both liked it a lot!
Main advantages that stuck in my mind:
1) Plenty of room for all passengers
2) Excellent fit-and-finish, inside and out,
except for interior "wood" (see below)
3) Fantastic torsional rigidity and responsiveness
The only two gripes we had were:
1) The interior "wood" trim was cheesy; our much cheaper Mercedes-Benz C280 has real inlaid wood.
2) Pricing - well, we all
Overall:
Great job, Porsche!
Main advantages that stuck in my mind:
1) Plenty of room for all passengers
2) Excellent fit-and-finish, inside and out,
except for interior "wood" (see below)
3) Fantastic torsional rigidity and responsiveness
The only two gripes we had were:
1) The interior "wood" trim was cheesy; our much cheaper Mercedes-Benz C280 has real inlaid wood.
2) Pricing - well, we all
Overall:
Great job, Porsche!
03-15-2003, 04:30 PM
#12
mpm,
you are right. I had figured out that 'fix' early on but have already forgotten it. That is exactly what I experienced. Auto box hesitation! Yup..
Love the Allroad...actually better than the Cayenne and for $500 a month, zero down. probably the best bang for the buck. Outperformed the Land Cruiser in the snow...maybe with better tires on the LC it would have been closer..
If we could only put the FX 45 8 Cylinder engine in the Allroad!
Mark
you are right. I had figured out that 'fix' early on but have already forgotten it. That is exactly what I experienced. Auto box hesitation! Yup..
Love the Allroad...actually better than the Cayenne and for $500 a month, zero down. probably the best bang for the buck. Outperformed the Land Cruiser in the snow...maybe with better tires on the LC it would have been closer..
If we could only put the FX 45 8 Cylinder engine in the Allroad!
Mark
03-15-2003, 05:39 PM
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I have had a Cayenne on order for over a year and was getting excited that the arrival time was getting close. Went to the showing at the local dealer today and all I can say is YAWN. I thought it was very unexciting. I noticed that with all the people looking at the vechiles no one opened the hood, most people testing the seating positions were women. My wife made the comment that it looks very bland and 'unmanly', and compared it to the ML in feeling (which we both dislike very much). I know the handling is superior to my Range Rover but it really didn't impress me as something I would want to drive everyday. I think I'll stay with Range Rovers.
03-15-2003, 06:38 PM
#14
Three Wheelin'
I stopped at the dealer again today for the official event, and took another look. In addition to the quality lapses I noticed yesterday, I can add the following:
1) The sliding plastic cover low on the console that says "Porsche" is extremely flimsy and has absolutely no place in a $56,000 vehicle, let alone a $90,000 one.
2) There is a strip of silver trim that encircles the side windows, and there is a joint in this trim above each C-pillar. On two of the three Cayennes in the showroom, the two pieces were lined up very poorly (and on both sides of the car). As far as I'm concerned, there is just no excuse for this.
1) The sliding plastic cover low on the console that says "Porsche" is extremely flimsy and has absolutely no place in a $56,000 vehicle, let alone a $90,000 one.
2) There is a strip of silver trim that encircles the side windows, and there is a joint in this trim above each C-pillar. On two of the three Cayennes in the showroom, the two pieces were lined up very poorly (and on both sides of the car). As far as I'm concerned, there is just no excuse for this.
03-15-2003, 06:42 PM
#15
02x50,
Very true...Can;t believe I didn;t pop the hood either...
Time to get my deposit back. I almost forgot I ordered it.
I see the future!
Picture it now... %599 per month zero down...coming soon?
I know it is a great SUV...I drove the Lexus GX 470 again and really love the fit and finish..
But I have 3 months left on the Land Cruiser..
Took the Boxster S out today and decided to forget SUVs for awhile...Love that thing...
Mark
Very true...Can;t believe I didn;t pop the hood either...
Time to get my deposit back. I almost forgot I ordered it.
I see the future!
Picture it now... %599 per month zero down...coming soon?
I know it is a great SUV...I drove the Lexus GX 470 again and really love the fit and finish..
But I have 3 months left on the Land Cruiser..
Took the Boxster S out today and decided to forget SUVs for awhile...Love that thing...
Mark