Okay, dealer intro attendees, I'll go first, please chime in ...
03-16-2003, 11:56 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by 02X50:
<strong>I noticed that with all the people looking at the vechiles no one opened the hood, most people testing the seating positions were women.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I opened the hood, and was relieved to see the actual intake instead of a big plasic cover over the entire engine. However, there was a big plastic cover over everything else! This did make the engine bay look very "tidy", but topping off the oil or checking your brake fluid must be a real chore.
<strong>I noticed that with all the people looking at the vechiles no one opened the hood, most people testing the seating positions were women.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I opened the hood, and was relieved to see the actual intake instead of a big plasic cover over the entire engine. However, there was a big plastic cover over everything else! This did make the engine bay look very "tidy", but topping off the oil or checking your brake fluid must be a real chore.
03-17-2003, 01:39 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Anir:
<strong>
My big gripe with the Cayenne is the same as with many other recent German manufacturers' offerings (not to mention, Aston Martins). The quality of the interior trim and switches should befit a car costing $70 - 95K. Metal trim should really be metal, not cheap imitation plastic. Plastics, when used, should be soft and of a high quality, not hard and shiny.
A Porsche should be built to last, and not just in the mechanical department.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I think this is an end result of things such as PSM, PTM, ABD, PASM and so on. So much technology is going under the hood or around the vehicle there has to be a sacrifice somewhere. All manufacturers have their versions of these devices. Maybe a focus change? Todays materials are different, recyclable is a big to-do nowadays. Don't forget environmentally! Therefore fake wood.
The Cayenne is a truck. I will be getting mine dirty, inside and out. Materials appear cleanable.
<strong>
My big gripe with the Cayenne is the same as with many other recent German manufacturers' offerings (not to mention, Aston Martins). The quality of the interior trim and switches should befit a car costing $70 - 95K. Metal trim should really be metal, not cheap imitation plastic. Plastics, when used, should be soft and of a high quality, not hard and shiny.
A Porsche should be built to last, and not just in the mechanical department.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I think this is an end result of things such as PSM, PTM, ABD, PASM and so on. So much technology is going under the hood or around the vehicle there has to be a sacrifice somewhere. All manufacturers have their versions of these devices. Maybe a focus change? Todays materials are different, recyclable is a big to-do nowadays. Don't forget environmentally! Therefore fake wood.
The Cayenne is a truck. I will be getting mine dirty, inside and out. Materials appear cleanable.
03-17-2003, 02:12 AM
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Normy...famous from the other Porsche V8- the 928.
A few weeks ago I saw a Cayenne on a street in Amsterdam. I didn't get up close, but it told me several things...
1. The nose is lower than it looks.
2. The car is bigger than it looks [it looks to be about the same size as a Tracker or Kia Sportage in size-it is acutally much larger, about the same as a late Ford Explorer]
3. My initial thoughts about the silver B-panel was correct- Porsche needs to black out all the pillars!
4. The Volkswagen Touareg [bad name- I sent them an email saying that I thought that they should resurrect the name "Corrado" for this car] is better looking.
Normy!
'85 928S2 5 Speed
A few weeks ago I saw a Cayenne on a street in Amsterdam. I didn't get up close, but it told me several things...
1. The nose is lower than it looks.
2. The car is bigger than it looks [it looks to be about the same size as a Tracker or Kia Sportage in size-it is acutally much larger, about the same as a late Ford Explorer]
3. My initial thoughts about the silver B-panel was correct- Porsche needs to black out all the pillars!
4. The Volkswagen Touareg [bad name- I sent them an email saying that I thought that they should resurrect the name "Corrado" for this car] is better looking.
Normy!
'85 928S2 5 Speed
03-17-2003, 02:41 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by dawktah:
<strong>Maybe a focus change? Todays materials are different, recyclable is a big to-do nowadays. Don't forget environmentally! Therefore fake wood.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yeah, that must be it. Let's use environmentally friendly plastic instead of biodegradeable wood.
Don't kid yourself. It's for cost savings.
The Cayenne is hardly a truck. It's a station wagon with a high seating position - an SUV with more of an emphasis on sport than utility. It's not cheap on the inside because it's expected to function as some sort of down-and-dirty workhorse. It's for profits.
Porsche's marketing folks are smart enough to know that lots of folks will buy the Cayenne (and many other German cars) despite poor trim material quality. I should know, because I stupidly paid high 80's for a 2000 MB S500. I'll try not to make that mistake again.
A friend of mine works at Toyota, and recently explained to me that they expect the average American buyer to hold a car for no longer than 5 years. Because they realize that we treat cars as disposable items, to be traded in when the next cool thing comes out, they no longer feel as great a need to build them to last. For example, he tells me that the number of plastic rivets used in Camry construction has skyrocketed. The corporate emphasis is on lowering the # hours needed to build each car. At some point, quality stands to suffer.
Honestly, it's in their best short term interests if we constantly purchase newer vehicles. However, I think this is a shame, because there was a time when you knew the interior of a Mercedes or Porsche would be in nearly new condition ten years after it had been manufactured. I seriously doubt this will hold true for the 1999 Boxster or 2003 Cayenne. The recent M5's used a similar fake metallic plastic in their vehicles, and it looked pretty rough after just a few months of use. Lots of scuff marks, gouges, and delamination. Real metal trim would assuredly fair better.
I do admire the technical achievements of vehicles like the Cayenne, but I'd personally rather have some of the manufacturer's dollars and focus put into build quality rather than a hundred little gadgets and electronic gizmos that we might be OK without.
Case in point: My 993TT is a better winter companion than my former 2002 BMW M3, despite the latter's DSC, and whatever else it had that ultimately ruined the driving experience. Cars are getting too complex and too heavy, at the expense of common sense attention to quality.
<strong>Maybe a focus change? Todays materials are different, recyclable is a big to-do nowadays. Don't forget environmentally! Therefore fake wood.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yeah, that must be it. Let's use environmentally friendly plastic instead of biodegradeable wood.
Don't kid yourself. It's for cost savings.
The Cayenne is hardly a truck. It's a station wagon with a high seating position - an SUV with more of an emphasis on sport than utility. It's not cheap on the inside because it's expected to function as some sort of down-and-dirty workhorse. It's for profits.
Porsche's marketing folks are smart enough to know that lots of folks will buy the Cayenne (and many other German cars) despite poor trim material quality. I should know, because I stupidly paid high 80's for a 2000 MB S500. I'll try not to make that mistake again.
A friend of mine works at Toyota, and recently explained to me that they expect the average American buyer to hold a car for no longer than 5 years. Because they realize that we treat cars as disposable items, to be traded in when the next cool thing comes out, they no longer feel as great a need to build them to last. For example, he tells me that the number of plastic rivets used in Camry construction has skyrocketed. The corporate emphasis is on lowering the # hours needed to build each car. At some point, quality stands to suffer.
Honestly, it's in their best short term interests if we constantly purchase newer vehicles. However, I think this is a shame, because there was a time when you knew the interior of a Mercedes or Porsche would be in nearly new condition ten years after it had been manufactured. I seriously doubt this will hold true for the 1999 Boxster or 2003 Cayenne. The recent M5's used a similar fake metallic plastic in their vehicles, and it looked pretty rough after just a few months of use. Lots of scuff marks, gouges, and delamination. Real metal trim would assuredly fair better.
I do admire the technical achievements of vehicles like the Cayenne, but I'd personally rather have some of the manufacturer's dollars and focus put into build quality rather than a hundred little gadgets and electronic gizmos that we might be OK without.
Case in point: My 993TT is a better winter companion than my former 2002 BMW M3, despite the latter's DSC, and whatever else it had that ultimately ruined the driving experience. Cars are getting too complex and too heavy, at the expense of common sense attention to quality.
03-17-2003, 09:18 AM
#35
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My dealer in Toledo sold a Cayenne turbo within 48 hours of getting it it for 92K. Some guy traded a 2001 911 Turbo for it stating that he found he rarely drove the 911 because of weather, parking, family reasons and wanted a Porsche he could drive every day. Hard to argue with that, perhaps Porsche knows more about guys like that than we give them credit for. I drove the S and liked it very much but not at 66K. I hope they sell them all so that they can continue to make the sports cars we love.
03-17-2003, 01:15 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by dadc4s:
<strong>My dealer in Toledo sold a Cayenne turbo within 48 hours of getting it it for 92K. Some guy traded a 2001 911 Turbo for it stating that he found he rarely drove the 911 because of weather, parking, family reasons and wanted a Porsche he could drive every day. Hard to argue with that, perhaps Porsche knows more about guys like that than we give them credit for. I drove the S and liked it very much but not at 66K. I hope they sell them all so that they can continue to make the sports cars we love.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">That would describe me. I knew I needed a SUV 4 years ago. I heard about the Cayenne even before it was called "Cayenne" I made decison then to wait for it. Having owned and fell in love with Porsche, it was a logical choice.
As far as the quality of parts go, does it "look" like it won't hold up or does it not hold up? What is the trim in your 2000 S500 doing?
What I meant about environmental, no trees being cut down for the sake of a dashboard.
I believe the Cayenne would have been 15K to 25K cheaper had the VW/Audi alliance had not occurred.
<strong>My dealer in Toledo sold a Cayenne turbo within 48 hours of getting it it for 92K. Some guy traded a 2001 911 Turbo for it stating that he found he rarely drove the 911 because of weather, parking, family reasons and wanted a Porsche he could drive every day. Hard to argue with that, perhaps Porsche knows more about guys like that than we give them credit for. I drove the S and liked it very much but not at 66K. I hope they sell them all so that they can continue to make the sports cars we love.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">That would describe me. I knew I needed a SUV 4 years ago. I heard about the Cayenne even before it was called "Cayenne" I made decison then to wait for it. Having owned and fell in love with Porsche, it was a logical choice.
As far as the quality of parts go, does it "look" like it won't hold up or does it not hold up? What is the trim in your 2000 S500 doing?
What I meant about environmental, no trees being cut down for the sake of a dashboard.
I believe the Cayenne would have been 15K to 25K cheaper had the VW/Audi alliance had not occurred.
03-17-2003, 01:23 PM
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Dawktah,
I sold my S500 after 4 months, after several little bits of trim, including two switches, broke off in my hands. I originally purchased the Mercedes because I thought MB's were "built like a tank". That was hardly the case. I've also had a friend with a 2001 M5 (with the fake titanium plastic trim), and it looked horrible after a few months. And, as you may know, our 2002 M3 suffered an engine failure after only 8,000 miles, so I have a basis for my concern about a potential drop in recent German automotive quality.
I don't know with absolute certainty how the Cayenne interior will fare, but it does surprise me that folks aren't more picky about the quality of the trim materials in their high-end cars. I guess I'm in the minority, which is why the manufacturers will continue to get away with this.
I sold my S500 after 4 months, after several little bits of trim, including two switches, broke off in my hands. I originally purchased the Mercedes because I thought MB's were "built like a tank". That was hardly the case. I've also had a friend with a 2001 M5 (with the fake titanium plastic trim), and it looked horrible after a few months. And, as you may know, our 2002 M3 suffered an engine failure after only 8,000 miles, so I have a basis for my concern about a potential drop in recent German automotive quality.
I don't know with absolute certainty how the Cayenne interior will fare, but it does surprise me that folks aren't more picky about the quality of the trim materials in their high-end cars. I guess I'm in the minority, which is why the manufacturers will continue to get away with this.
03-17-2003, 06:46 PM
#38
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Anir,
I'm with you all the way. When the parts that are readily seen are of inferior quality, such as the interior trim, I have to wonder about the parts we cannot see so easily. One of the things that I like about my 911SC and 993 is that when I work on them and see the things that are usually hidden, everything looks superb. Also, the 22 year old doors on my SC (and the 8 year old doors on my 993) close with that "bank vault" sound indicative of real quality. That those old doors sound more solid than those of any 996, 986, or Cayenne (which does have window frames) is very telling.
I'm with you all the way. When the parts that are readily seen are of inferior quality, such as the interior trim, I have to wonder about the parts we cannot see so easily. One of the things that I like about my 911SC and 993 is that when I work on them and see the things that are usually hidden, everything looks superb. Also, the 22 year old doors on my SC (and the 8 year old doors on my 993) close with that "bank vault" sound indicative of real quality. That those old doors sound more solid than those of any 996, 986, or Cayenne (which does have window frames) is very telling.
03-17-2003, 07:27 PM
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Todd,
I agree.
Why don't more people care about the drop in quality? The reputation for tank-like build quality and bulletproof reliability had as much (or more) to do with building the high-end German auto industry than performance, but it seems that most people will overlook quality issues if the 0-60 mph time is good enough.
Maybe, it's because folks aren't buying these cars for the long haul? I plan to keep the 993TT forever.
I agree.
Why don't more people care about the drop in quality? The reputation for tank-like build quality and bulletproof reliability had as much (or more) to do with building the high-end German auto industry than performance, but it seems that most people will overlook quality issues if the 0-60 mph time is good enough.
Maybe, it's because folks aren't buying these cars for the long haul? I plan to keep the 993TT forever.
03-17-2003, 07:38 PM
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I have to say that I'm with Anir and Todd on the issue of manufacturers' usage of cheap interior materials being dangerously shortsighted. I understand that it's a way to increase profit margins per car, and that the slow build-everything-by-hand manufacturing processes of the past couldn't survive, but they need to move the line a whole lot closer to higher quality and more durable materials. These issues affect the wear-and-tear condition of the car, lower resale values, and most importantly lessen the overall feelings of opulence and driver enjoyment. I also am not appeased by the observation that "oh, the Turbo's interior is much better, cut Porsche some slack." People say that as though it's perfectly acceptable for any Porsche to have less than a superb level of interior quality. The S isn't supposed to be some "budget Porsche" for which buyers should have dramatically diminished expectations. The S costs upwards of 60 freakin' grand!
Also, they forgot to style the tail lights.
In assessing SUV's, if I'm presented with a choice between 1) a utilitarian and "butch" looking exterior plus an opulent interior; or 2) a fussy-looking exterior plus a utilitarian and minimalist interior, I'm choosing the first 10 times out of 10.
My wife has said "no way" to the Cayenne after the dealer intro, so it's officially off the list. I'm going to sneak out of work tomorrow to accomplish the test drive of the S nonetheless. For the price of the Cayenne, I'm trying to convince her we can get a Mini Cooper and a base BMW X5 or Audi Allroad. I'm making headway ....
For you folks who already own sportscars, with what arguments are you persuading significant others that it makes sense to buy the the sports car of SUVs, the Cayenne?
Anir, looking forward to your 911 & Porsche World report on the 993TT.
Also, they forgot to style the tail lights.
In assessing SUV's, if I'm presented with a choice between 1) a utilitarian and "butch" looking exterior plus an opulent interior; or 2) a fussy-looking exterior plus a utilitarian and minimalist interior, I'm choosing the first 10 times out of 10.
My wife has said "no way" to the Cayenne after the dealer intro, so it's officially off the list. I'm going to sneak out of work tomorrow to accomplish the test drive of the S nonetheless. For the price of the Cayenne, I'm trying to convince her we can get a Mini Cooper and a base BMW X5 or Audi Allroad. I'm making headway ....
For you folks who already own sportscars, with what arguments are you persuading significant others that it makes sense to buy the the sports car of SUVs, the Cayenne?
Anir, looking forward to your 911 & Porsche World report on the 993TT.
03-17-2003, 08:01 PM
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John,
I'd also love to wring out a Mini Cooper. I bet they're a lot of fun. My wife likes them a lot as well. Maybe...
The second Running Report for 911 & Porsche World has been submitted but probably won't be published until the summer.
I'd also love to wring out a Mini Cooper. I bet they're a lot of fun. My wife likes them a lot as well. Maybe...
The second Running Report for 911 & Porsche World has been submitted but probably won't be published until the summer.
03-17-2003, 09:18 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by John H. in DC Area:
<strong>a utilitarian and "butch" looking exterior plus an opulent interior.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">We prefer to think of the allroad as "bull dog" tough.
<strong>a utilitarian and "butch" looking exterior plus an opulent interior.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">We prefer to think of the allroad as "bull dog" tough.
03-17-2003, 11:05 PM
#44
The points about the drop in quality are well made.
Apparently this is because - thanks to leasing programs - more and more consumers are viewing cars as "disposable purchases." People are just keeping cars for the lease period and not beyond.
A BMW mechanic once told me that BMW builds its cars to be very reliable during the warranty period. But after the warranty, it does not really care what happens.
When you think about it, this approach makes sense for the manufacturer. BMW & Porsche are in the business of selling new cars. While the companies want to minimize warranty claims, they also want consumers continually in their new car showrooms.
With the above stated, Porsche has a pretty good track record of continually improving its vehicles on a yearly basis. If enough people complain about the Cayenne's (& 996/986) interior quality, then Porsche will act to correct the problems.
Now... Who can explain Porsche's bizarre decision to omit a spare tire from the Pepper??? German cars (BMW, Porsche) usually come loaded with all sorts of goodies (toolkit, flashlight, compressor pump, fullsize spare, etc.). The omission of ANY SPARE WHATSOEVER is a very odd move by Porsche.
I had a situation in my Boxster in which my tire sidewall was punctured and pretty much destroyed. If I had been reliant on the Cayenne's little spray can of foam, well... I would have been completely stranded. What is Porsche thinking???
Apparently this is because - thanks to leasing programs - more and more consumers are viewing cars as "disposable purchases." People are just keeping cars for the lease period and not beyond.
A BMW mechanic once told me that BMW builds its cars to be very reliable during the warranty period. But after the warranty, it does not really care what happens.
When you think about it, this approach makes sense for the manufacturer. BMW & Porsche are in the business of selling new cars. While the companies want to minimize warranty claims, they also want consumers continually in their new car showrooms.
With the above stated, Porsche has a pretty good track record of continually improving its vehicles on a yearly basis. If enough people complain about the Cayenne's (& 996/986) interior quality, then Porsche will act to correct the problems.
Now... Who can explain Porsche's bizarre decision to omit a spare tire from the Pepper??? German cars (BMW, Porsche) usually come loaded with all sorts of goodies (toolkit, flashlight, compressor pump, fullsize spare, etc.). The omission of ANY SPARE WHATSOEVER is a very odd move by Porsche.
I had a situation in my Boxster in which my tire sidewall was punctured and pretty much destroyed. If I had been reliant on the Cayenne's little spray can of foam, well... I would have been completely stranded. What is Porsche thinking???
03-17-2003, 11:59 PM
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In their zeal to reinvent the SUV, I doubt Porsche heard any focus groups suggest jettisoning the spare. Seems pretty bizarre to me. I read a rumor somewhere that the spare will be present in MY 2004 Cayennes because Porsche figured out other solutions to the extra battery and subwoofer placement issues. Don't know if this is true.