Buy the Range Rover and Get My Cayenne Deposit Back?
11-28-2002, 04:22 PM
#76
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Ha, MPM! Nah, there are waaaaaay too many skeletons in my closet (that I enjoyed putting there, of course).
Eat an extra drumstick and another bucketfull of stuffing for me. You'll need the energy at the rate these threads on the Cayenne board are growing.
Happy Holiday <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Eat an extra drumstick and another bucketfull of stuffing for me. You'll need the energy at the rate these threads on the Cayenne board are growing.
Happy Holiday <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
11-28-2002, 07:55 PM
#77
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Anir
YOUR QUOTE: This is a forum about expensive SUV's, so it's probably a good assumption that those of us who frequent this board like expensive SUV's (whether this makes sense to you or not) and have the means to purchase one. If this offends you, you may be in the wrong place.
Apologies for the delay in getting back to you. But I’ve been busy checking if I am in a financial position to buy an ‘expensive SUV’. The good news is I am! I assure you I am not an imposter on this board – promise! Having said that on a rough count I would say 50% of those who frequent this board don’t like expensive SUV’s.
I think perhaps you were being a little disingenuous. I disagreed with your reasoning and you came back with, in so many words, I’m right you’re wrong and if you can’t afford it why not say so’. Followed by a sarcastic comment re. ‘enjoy hauling and towing in your Audi’ – as an aside is it possible to enjoy hauling and towing?
But lets agree not to second guess each others 'economic realities' and get on with the discussion.
In your argument you have used different SUV’s to back up different points. But on the basis that you are not seriously suggesting buying 3 or more SUV’s (if you are I suggest The Betty Ford Clinic!), lets stick to the Range Rover and Audi A6
Going back to your original 5 points:
1. Towing a trailer (track car, boat, etc.): Both vehicles can tow, in total safety, our P’s to a track. Perhaps if we had a race to the track towing our P’s the RR would be safer, but as you are clearly a safety conscious person I suspect you did not buy the RR for this purpose! As far as boats are concerned I assume there are boats that can be towed by a RR but not an Audi. If your boat falls into this category you have made a wise choice.
2. Hauling lumber, antiques, and other large items. I have transported wood, antiques and other large items in my A6. I am sure certain antiques and large items may fit in to a RR but not an A6, but how many times have you ‘hauled’ items and thought ‘phew lucky I bought the RR this would never fit into an estate’?! Furthermore if I were ever really desperate to transport a really large item I could put it on the roof rack which will hold more than a RR interior.
3. Shuttling 7-9 people: With optional rear facing seats they can both seat 7.
4. Safety: Othello has addressed this point very well above. I also think it depends if your priority is ability to avoid trouble versus ability to survive trouble! Statistically which is more important? I don’t know and I don’t believe anyone does. What I do know is that due to ‘other driver error’ on 2 occasions recently I have had to swerve violently to avoid a crash, if I had been in a relatively unstable RR I shudder to think what might have happened.
It may or may not be safer for you and your family but one can also turn this argument round – if you were driving along, got stung by a bee, crashed into my Audi and injured my family I might feel tempted to say to ‘you selfish inconsiderate #*@! why are you driving around in a tank?’ A case of ‘I’m all right Jack…….’? The logical extension of your argument is that everybody would be driving SUV’s….think of the carnage!
5. Driving position and view of the road (makes for an excellent road trip mobile): This is where the RR really scores top marks.
So in summing up: Points 1 (unless you have a really big boat) 2, 3 & 4 do not hold water. Point 5 does!
At this point we ask ourselves ‘are people really spending £50,000 for a great view of the road……………..or could there be another reason?
Remember, I asked you to convince me to buy an SUV. But don’t feel bad if you don’t succeed as, quite simply, it’s not possible. If I lived in a house with a 5 mile dirt track driveway I might, and I stress ‘might’ consider it!
BR
Piers
Ps John H in DC Area, is this OK?
YOUR QUOTE: This is a forum about expensive SUV's, so it's probably a good assumption that those of us who frequent this board like expensive SUV's (whether this makes sense to you or not) and have the means to purchase one. If this offends you, you may be in the wrong place.
Apologies for the delay in getting back to you. But I’ve been busy checking if I am in a financial position to buy an ‘expensive SUV’. The good news is I am! I assure you I am not an imposter on this board – promise! Having said that on a rough count I would say 50% of those who frequent this board don’t like expensive SUV’s.
I think perhaps you were being a little disingenuous. I disagreed with your reasoning and you came back with, in so many words, I’m right you’re wrong and if you can’t afford it why not say so’. Followed by a sarcastic comment re. ‘enjoy hauling and towing in your Audi’ – as an aside is it possible to enjoy hauling and towing?
But lets agree not to second guess each others 'economic realities' and get on with the discussion.
In your argument you have used different SUV’s to back up different points. But on the basis that you are not seriously suggesting buying 3 or more SUV’s (if you are I suggest The Betty Ford Clinic!), lets stick to the Range Rover and Audi A6
Going back to your original 5 points:
1. Towing a trailer (track car, boat, etc.): Both vehicles can tow, in total safety, our P’s to a track. Perhaps if we had a race to the track towing our P’s the RR would be safer, but as you are clearly a safety conscious person I suspect you did not buy the RR for this purpose! As far as boats are concerned I assume there are boats that can be towed by a RR but not an Audi. If your boat falls into this category you have made a wise choice.
2. Hauling lumber, antiques, and other large items. I have transported wood, antiques and other large items in my A6. I am sure certain antiques and large items may fit in to a RR but not an A6, but how many times have you ‘hauled’ items and thought ‘phew lucky I bought the RR this would never fit into an estate’?! Furthermore if I were ever really desperate to transport a really large item I could put it on the roof rack which will hold more than a RR interior.
3. Shuttling 7-9 people: With optional rear facing seats they can both seat 7.
4. Safety: Othello has addressed this point very well above. I also think it depends if your priority is ability to avoid trouble versus ability to survive trouble! Statistically which is more important? I don’t know and I don’t believe anyone does. What I do know is that due to ‘other driver error’ on 2 occasions recently I have had to swerve violently to avoid a crash, if I had been in a relatively unstable RR I shudder to think what might have happened.
It may or may not be safer for you and your family but one can also turn this argument round – if you were driving along, got stung by a bee, crashed into my Audi and injured my family I might feel tempted to say to ‘you selfish inconsiderate #*@! why are you driving around in a tank?’ A case of ‘I’m all right Jack…….’? The logical extension of your argument is that everybody would be driving SUV’s….think of the carnage!
5. Driving position and view of the road (makes for an excellent road trip mobile): This is where the RR really scores top marks.
So in summing up: Points 1 (unless you have a really big boat) 2, 3 & 4 do not hold water. Point 5 does!
At this point we ask ourselves ‘are people really spending £50,000 for a great view of the road……………..or could there be another reason?
Remember, I asked you to convince me to buy an SUV. But don’t feel bad if you don’t succeed as, quite simply, it’s not possible. If I lived in a house with a 5 mile dirt track driveway I might, and I stress ‘might’ consider it!
BR
Piers
Ps John H in DC Area, is this OK?
11-28-2002, 09:15 PM
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Piers,
Nicely done, my friend. You make some valid points and state your position very eloquently.
As you've suggested, you can get the job done with just about any car. For example, my wife, two children, and I just took a 6-hour road trip to Michigan a few months ago in the 993TT. Ideal? No, but a lot of fun.
Why did I really buy the Range Rover? I thought it was a lot of fun to drive, would come in handy for towing a dedicated track car that I hope to buy soon, seemed well built, could haul 3x the number of adults of my 993TT, and looked really nice. I forgot to consult the neighbors to make sure it would increase my status before my buying it.
If I wasn't such a sucker for pretty styling, I would have bought a GMC Suburban, which would probably be a better argument for a big SUV, since it can tow the Titanic and hold 9 people. That type of SUV can truly do things that an estate cannot hope to do. My RR is somewhere in between, but serves our needs very well.
I want to apologize if I came across a bit harsh at first. Having said that, I remain a bit surprised that you seem so sensitive about financial issues. When I replied to your second post, I just wanted you to do a better job of supporting your position. It never had anything to do with money.
My wife is French, and I understand from her family that many Europeans drive smaller cars due to parking difficulties and the high price of petrol. From what I've read, gas (petrol and diesel) appears to cost about 3X more in Britain than in the U.S.. My response was directed toward this economic reality. I can promise you that I never gave a single thought to the amount of money you make. It's simply a non-issue for me.
In my experience, there are many, many folks who could afford to drive Porsches, Ferraris, and Bentleys, but choose not to do so because they have good financial sense, or simply different priorities. Therefore, it's a slippery slope to judge another's financial resources based on the cars in his or her garage.
A final comment: When I stated, "I'm glad you like your Audi. Enjoy towing and hauling with it", it was in response to your comment, "1,2 & 3 give me my Audi any day." Maybe, I misunderstood your infectious enthusiasm for your chosen tow vehicle.
Have a great weekend.
Nicely done, my friend. You make some valid points and state your position very eloquently.
As you've suggested, you can get the job done with just about any car. For example, my wife, two children, and I just took a 6-hour road trip to Michigan a few months ago in the 993TT. Ideal? No, but a lot of fun.
Why did I really buy the Range Rover? I thought it was a lot of fun to drive, would come in handy for towing a dedicated track car that I hope to buy soon, seemed well built, could haul 3x the number of adults of my 993TT, and looked really nice. I forgot to consult the neighbors to make sure it would increase my status before my buying it.
If I wasn't such a sucker for pretty styling, I would have bought a GMC Suburban, which would probably be a better argument for a big SUV, since it can tow the Titanic and hold 9 people. That type of SUV can truly do things that an estate cannot hope to do. My RR is somewhere in between, but serves our needs very well.
I want to apologize if I came across a bit harsh at first. Having said that, I remain a bit surprised that you seem so sensitive about financial issues. When I replied to your second post, I just wanted you to do a better job of supporting your position. It never had anything to do with money.
My wife is French, and I understand from her family that many Europeans drive smaller cars due to parking difficulties and the high price of petrol. From what I've read, gas (petrol and diesel) appears to cost about 3X more in Britain than in the U.S.. My response was directed toward this economic reality. I can promise you that I never gave a single thought to the amount of money you make. It's simply a non-issue for me.
In my experience, there are many, many folks who could afford to drive Porsches, Ferraris, and Bentleys, but choose not to do so because they have good financial sense, or simply different priorities. Therefore, it's a slippery slope to judge another's financial resources based on the cars in his or her garage.
A final comment: When I stated, "I'm glad you like your Audi. Enjoy towing and hauling with it", it was in response to your comment, "1,2 & 3 give me my Audi any day." Maybe, I misunderstood your infectious enthusiasm for your chosen tow vehicle.
Have a great weekend.
12-12-2002, 05:15 PM
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Well I had a minivan luxury loaded What crap and no fun to drive... I have 5 (YES FIVE) kids! We need the SUV (Lincoln Navigator) to hold all of us and gear (which we are already short onh space of) We have a 26' Cobalt Boat, snowmobile trailer, and various other thins like 4 wheelers sea-doos that we need to tow. We live on a lake in the mountains. We get LOTS of snow we ski. THERE AINT NO OTHER VEHICLE THAT GIVES US THE VERSATILITY THAT WE NEED!! No station wagon even sits more than 5. WE NEED AN SUV!! Now the RR doesn't have enough capacity the only options I see are the Nav, Denali, Suburban, Lexus LX Sequia. The Lincoln was designed interior layout wise much better than all the others, with legroom and access to third row seats. The LCD Tv and vcr are lifesavers for our sanity b/c the kids NEVER ask "are we there yet?" I hate driving it though, there's nothing that can beat the pcar.. <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />
12-12-2002, 07:56 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Anir:
<strong>Hi John,
So, here's my question. Are you saying that someone like me doesn't qualify as a true car guy or a real Porsche enthusiast because I happen to love driving a big, luxury-oriented SUV as well? .</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think that is what he is saying as otherwise his post just sounds like non-sensical ranting.
Yeah, I guess all of my knowledge and experience driving Porsches (and Mercedes and BMWs and a host of other cars) and my SCCA license mean I am just after a badge!
As for his investment expertise. Well, it is probably worth $.02
<strong>Hi John,
So, here's my question. Are you saying that someone like me doesn't qualify as a true car guy or a real Porsche enthusiast because I happen to love driving a big, luxury-oriented SUV as well? .</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think that is what he is saying as otherwise his post just sounds like non-sensical ranting.
Yeah, I guess all of my knowledge and experience driving Porsches (and Mercedes and BMWs and a host of other cars) and my SCCA license mean I am just after a badge!
As for his investment expertise. Well, it is probably worth $.02
12-12-2002, 07:58 PM
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By the way, I still love my Range Rover. Glad I didn't wait for the P fish.
Anir, I did find out that the Radio problem I was having is a software glitch and they are supposed to fix it tomorrow. Other than that, there have been no problems with the RR at all.
Anir, I did find out that the Radio problem I was having is a software glitch and they are supposed to fix it tomorrow. Other than that, there have been no problems with the RR at all.
12-12-2002, 08:22 PM
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Ibanez,
Let me know if they can fix it. My dealer couldn't figure out how to apply the custom features (door locking at speed etc). I think it is because they are still unfamiliar with the car computer since these work on all the brit rovers.
Also, the spanish female voice for the nav system apparently speaks only spanish. So unless you speak spanish you are stuck with "James"
Cheers,
Let me know if they can fix it. My dealer couldn't figure out how to apply the custom features (door locking at speed etc). I think it is because they are still unfamiliar with the car computer since these work on all the brit rovers.
Also, the spanish female voice for the nav system apparently speaks only spanish. So unless you speak spanish you are stuck with "James"
Cheers,
12-12-2002, 08:29 PM
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Ibanez and John,
Thanks for the update on the radio and nav system, respectively.
I just received the new Autocar today, and they named the Range Rover as one of the ten best cars in the world. Other notable winners included the 996TT, Lamborghini Mucielago, Pagani Zonda, and MB E55 AMG. Pretty decent company.
Thanks for the update on the radio and nav system, respectively.
I just received the new Autocar today, and they named the Range Rover as one of the ten best cars in the world. Other notable winners included the 996TT, Lamborghini Mucielago, Pagani Zonda, and MB E55 AMG. Pretty decent company.
12-12-2002, 09:11 PM
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Spanish? Why are you listening to it in Spanish?
I used the Nav for the first time over the Thanksgiving holiday and got a good laugh as the voice for the Nav has an English accent and they use British English (as opposed to American English) terms when giving you directions.
Did either of you get the rear cargo liner or storage nets? I got them, they fit perfectly and are a great accessory (unlike my 996 TT, there isn't much you can do to modify the RR).
I used the Nav for the first time over the Thanksgiving holiday and got a good laugh as the voice for the Nav has an English accent and they use British English (as opposed to American English) terms when giving you directions.
Did either of you get the rear cargo liner or storage nets? I got them, they fit perfectly and are a great accessory (unlike my 996 TT, there isn't much you can do to modify the RR).
12-13-2002, 01:52 AM
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I was hoping for a Spanish Woman to replace "James". Imagine Penelope Cruz telling you where to go instead. Oh well, I don't understand spanish so I am stuck with James.
I have the cargo liner, dog guard, and expedition roof rack. The liner and dog guard are great. The rack is rock solid, but makes wind noise at highway speeds. I will probably pick up the side cargo nets and rear seat covers (Ivory seats and kids) soon.
I have the cargo liner, dog guard, and expedition roof rack. The liner and dog guard are great. The rack is rock solid, but makes wind noise at highway speeds. I will probably pick up the side cargo nets and rear seat covers (Ivory seats and kids) soon.
12-13-2002, 02:21 AM
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I find this an amazing thread. The feelings the cayenne and suv's in general bring out in people who all love cars in one way or another is a little surprising to me.
First, I agree that very few people go offroading in their upscale SUVs. But many of us live in areas (UTAH) where we have opportunities at least weekly to go down roads or through snowstorms and drifts that estate wagons and 4wheel sedans just won't navigate safely.
Many of us also have carpools and families where 7 passenger capacity is used all the time...not to mention dogs and all our gear.
Some of us actually love a car just for the pure enjoyment of something that is beautifully designed for its purpose...that might be the singlemindedness of the HUMMER or the GT2 or the multipurposefulness of the RR, RS6, 996TT or Allroad. I'd also add the Suburban and most SUVs.
Most SUVs are not status symbols. People don't lust after a '84 Toyota Landcruiser like i drove in NYC. It was awesome for the city though. It scared the taxi combatants and fit all our friends for weekend trips and had capacity for delivery of groceries to all the people on assistance in our church. No other car owned by other members even came close to pulling this off.
I agree with earlier posts that it is ironic that anyone who drives/owns a porsche could take a stand on practicality against SUVs or a cayenne. None of us need to drive 120mph or accelerate to 60 in 5 secs. I don't even try and justify it as safe...it's just fun and safer in a porsche than many other cars. We own them for so many reasons beyond reason.
I found this board after recent reviews and extensive reading on the cayenne and toureg piqued my interest in them. I drive around all winter, up and down canyons, go skiing, into remote lakes on dirt roads and get paged to sprint back to the hospital all the time. It is much more fun to do so in a well mannered comfortable SUV than a truck and estates won't get me everywhere I go reasonably often. Would i love cruising around in a cayenne knowing that if it dumps while i'm up at snowbird that i'll safely and surely make it back home or to the hospital no matter what and if it doesn't that i'll be able to push down those awesome twisty roads in little cottonwood canyon? Definitely. For many months of the year daily driving means possibly being stranded if you're in the wrong car. It's nice to have one that does it all...even if it doesn't do them all perfectly.
Just so you don't think i'm trolling or have no experience with porsche...i have 996tt, used to have 84 turbo with upgraded turbo etc, had 81 euro 911 sc before that and have been reading everything i could get my hands on about them since i was 12 (25 yrs ago). I love the car and think they've brought something new to the SUV/multipurpose car category with the cayenne turbo with its offroad abilities, handling and performance.
I also have a 2000 G500 (imported by europa and bought at a huge discount last year, which i think are better built than the new ones) which gets me anywhere in great comfort but doesn't handle very well and isn't too fast. I think the cayenne will get me most of the places this takes me (except one remote lake and MOAB trails) and get me home with more handling and zip.
Another pure car i recently got is a used Maranello. The drive is awesome and very different from the 996tt. I love the V12 and the bodystyle is beautiful to me.
My wife drives the mercedes E320 wagon...another great car that is our usual drive around town with our 2 and 3 year old boys.
I don't know if i'll get a cayenne turbo and sell the G500, mostly because i am skiddish of first model year autos but also because i do like cars that i believe 10 or 20 yrs from now will be classics and have fulfilled their design potential. In my opinion the G500, 996tt, and Maranello have done that...in a completely different way the cayenne may also.
Sorry for the long first post here. By the way...although the cayenne's looks are growing on me, overall i think it is pretty mundane, maybe even ugly. I'll wait to see it in person...but again...i don't care so much how it looks in this case...just how it goes.
First, I agree that very few people go offroading in their upscale SUVs. But many of us live in areas (UTAH) where we have opportunities at least weekly to go down roads or through snowstorms and drifts that estate wagons and 4wheel sedans just won't navigate safely.
Many of us also have carpools and families where 7 passenger capacity is used all the time...not to mention dogs and all our gear.
Some of us actually love a car just for the pure enjoyment of something that is beautifully designed for its purpose...that might be the singlemindedness of the HUMMER or the GT2 or the multipurposefulness of the RR, RS6, 996TT or Allroad. I'd also add the Suburban and most SUVs.
Most SUVs are not status symbols. People don't lust after a '84 Toyota Landcruiser like i drove in NYC. It was awesome for the city though. It scared the taxi combatants and fit all our friends for weekend trips and had capacity for delivery of groceries to all the people on assistance in our church. No other car owned by other members even came close to pulling this off.
I agree with earlier posts that it is ironic that anyone who drives/owns a porsche could take a stand on practicality against SUVs or a cayenne. None of us need to drive 120mph or accelerate to 60 in 5 secs. I don't even try and justify it as safe...it's just fun and safer in a porsche than many other cars. We own them for so many reasons beyond reason.
I found this board after recent reviews and extensive reading on the cayenne and toureg piqued my interest in them. I drive around all winter, up and down canyons, go skiing, into remote lakes on dirt roads and get paged to sprint back to the hospital all the time. It is much more fun to do so in a well mannered comfortable SUV than a truck and estates won't get me everywhere I go reasonably often. Would i love cruising around in a cayenne knowing that if it dumps while i'm up at snowbird that i'll safely and surely make it back home or to the hospital no matter what and if it doesn't that i'll be able to push down those awesome twisty roads in little cottonwood canyon? Definitely. For many months of the year daily driving means possibly being stranded if you're in the wrong car. It's nice to have one that does it all...even if it doesn't do them all perfectly.
Just so you don't think i'm trolling or have no experience with porsche...i have 996tt, used to have 84 turbo with upgraded turbo etc, had 81 euro 911 sc before that and have been reading everything i could get my hands on about them since i was 12 (25 yrs ago). I love the car and think they've brought something new to the SUV/multipurpose car category with the cayenne turbo with its offroad abilities, handling and performance.
I also have a 2000 G500 (imported by europa and bought at a huge discount last year, which i think are better built than the new ones) which gets me anywhere in great comfort but doesn't handle very well and isn't too fast. I think the cayenne will get me most of the places this takes me (except one remote lake and MOAB trails) and get me home with more handling and zip.
Another pure car i recently got is a used Maranello. The drive is awesome and very different from the 996tt. I love the V12 and the bodystyle is beautiful to me.
My wife drives the mercedes E320 wagon...another great car that is our usual drive around town with our 2 and 3 year old boys.
I don't know if i'll get a cayenne turbo and sell the G500, mostly because i am skiddish of first model year autos but also because i do like cars that i believe 10 or 20 yrs from now will be classics and have fulfilled their design potential. In my opinion the G500, 996tt, and Maranello have done that...in a completely different way the cayenne may also.
Sorry for the long first post here. By the way...although the cayenne's looks are growing on me, overall i think it is pretty mundane, maybe even ugly. I'll wait to see it in person...but again...i don't care so much how it looks in this case...just how it goes.
12-13-2002, 09:37 AM
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As a (02)G500, (02)GT2 and (03)X51 owner I agree with your sentiments exactly.
It's all about needs and choice, and not perfection, rightness or wrongness.
Let's judge the Cayenne for how it meets it's objectives and not our perceptions.
It's all about needs and choice, and not perfection, rightness or wrongness.
Let's judge the Cayenne for how it meets it's objectives and not our perceptions.
12-14-2002, 05:14 PM
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Well, I've ventured off of the 993 site and couldn't resist giving my two cents.
For the life of me, I can't understand why someone who drives a glorified Dodge Dakota pickup truck with a wagon body bolted onto it would be reluctant to drive a "down market" BMW, MB or VW. It seems that many folks had very good ideas as to alternatives to someone who couldn't quite stretch to spend $100k on a vehicle that could nearly match the performance of a 996 Turbo but carry four in comfort as well as occasionally leave the road.
Given the performance figures released during initial tests of the Cayenne, it seems like a good value - perhaps why there are currently people willing to give up thousands of dollars in nonrefundable deposits. For anyone who professes to be a businessman, the rationale behind the Cayenne should be perfectly clear. It will make money - just in case it wasn't obvious enough.
For the life of me, I can't understand why someone who drives a glorified Dodge Dakota pickup truck with a wagon body bolted onto it would be reluctant to drive a "down market" BMW, MB or VW. It seems that many folks had very good ideas as to alternatives to someone who couldn't quite stretch to spend $100k on a vehicle that could nearly match the performance of a 996 Turbo but carry four in comfort as well as occasionally leave the road.
Given the performance figures released during initial tests of the Cayenne, it seems like a good value - perhaps why there are currently people willing to give up thousands of dollars in nonrefundable deposits. For anyone who professes to be a businessman, the rationale behind the Cayenne should be perfectly clear. It will make money - just in case it wasn't obvious enough.