Anir

[quote]Originally posted by Roygarth:
<strong>

Not convinced! Point 5 is valid but £50K for a nice view! 1,2 & 3 give me my Audi any day - 7 to 9 in a Range Rover..hmmmm! Point 4 is a red herring, why not be done with it and drive a tank?
But hey, everyone to their own.

BR
Piers</strong><hr></blockquote>

Piers,

Your Audi estate may be a nice car, but...

I seriously doubt that your Audi is capable of safely or effectively towing as much as a GMC Denali (8800 lbs), nor can it even match the relatively humble 7700 lb. towing capacity of the '03 Range Rover. Not to mention, the RR has a self-leveling suspension which accounts for the trailer load and makes the whole outfit exceptionally stable.

Many American SUV's can easily hold 8-9 people, and our '03 Range Rover carries 7 with our aftermarket third row seat made by Overfinch in your backyard.

You've got to be kidding me if you think you can fit large items into a station wagon (estate) as easily as in a true SUV.

"Driving a tank"? Is that a valid, or even desirable, option? Why not trade in your Porsche for a rocket sled if you like to go fast?

I posted the road trip / driving position point last because it's obviously very subjective, but it's become important to me. So is a 993TT, which is obviously not necessary when a normally-aspirated 993 would do very nicely, thank you.

If you don't like SUV's because they are expensive to run and difficult to park in a city like London, why not just say so? That argument would make sense, as opposed to the one you put forth above.

I'm glad you like your Audi. Enjoy towing and hauling with it.

Roygarth

Dear Anir

You really are very defensive about your SUV's.

I am sure you are much richer than me and I am sure that makes you very very happy.

BR
Piers

Anir

[quote]Originally posted by Roygarth:
<strong>Dear Anir

You really are very defensive about your SUV's.

I am sure you are much richer than me and I am sure that makes you very very happy.

BR
Piers</strong><hr></blockquote>




Who's the one being defensive?

You asked a question, and I tried to take the time to answer it - largely because nobody else had done so. I was hoping that you might engage in an intelligent debate about your position, but you seem more comfortable with slinging mud.

This is a forum about expensive SUV's, so it's probably a good assumption that those of us who frequent this board like expensive SUV's (whether this makes sense to you or not) and have the means to purchase one. If this offends you, you may be in the wrong place.

John H. in DC Area

Piers, I thought your last response took a left turn and went way out of the ballpark of this discussion. I re-read Anir's post and I can't find anything, ether overt or covert, in Anir's responses to you that suggests his reasoning rests on the snobbism you've claimed. Why not get back on point?

Roygarth

Anir

My comment was a response to your statement:

'If you don't like SUV's because they are expensive to run' Where did that come from?


BR
Piers

M758

[quote]Originally posted by Anir:
<strong>

How about:

1. Towing a trailer (track car, boat, etc.)

2. Hauling lumber, antiques, and other large items.

3. Shuttling 7-9 people

4. Safety

5. Driving position and view of the road (makes for an excellent road trip mobile)
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Points 1 & 2 are valid...but SUV is not ideal for these. Pick-up Truck serves them better.
Point 3 = Get a Mini Van or real Van
Point 4 = ??? Your greatest safety is to avoid accidents...
Point 5 = Sounds like you are believeing the Lie

AND you forgot the only really valid point to own an SUV.... OFF ROAD adventures....

Proud owner of a 98 Jeep Cherokee with 4.5" Lift and many battle scars

Anir

[quote]Originally posted by Roygarth:
<strong>Anir

My comment was a response to your statement:

'If you don't like SUV's because they are expensive to run' Where did that come from?


BR
Piers</strong><hr></blockquote>

Piers,

I was referring to the fact that gasoline is so much more expensive in Europe. As I understand it, this is why diesels are so popular, and also why folks tend to drive cars with better gas mileage. I subscribe to several British car mags, and they are always focusing on gas mileage.

I certainly wasn't insulting your pocketbook - just addressing economic realities.

Anir

[quote]Originally posted by M758:
<strong>

Points 1 & 2 are valid...but SUV is not ideal for these. Pick-up Truck serves them better.
Point 3 = Get a Mini Van or real Van
Point 4 = ??? Your greatest safety is to avoid accidents...
Point 5 = Sounds like you are believeing the Lie

AND you forgot the only really valid point to own an SUV.... OFF ROAD adventures....

Proud owner of a 98 Jeep Cherokee with 4.5" Lift and many battle scars </strong><hr></blockquote>


M758,

I know that you feel that SUV's are useless unless used off-road, and I can see your point. Of course, you are also effectively damning all Porsche owners who don't regularly take their vehicles to the track. It's a valid analogy (one that I don't support, BTW).

Honestly, I don't see why you feel that a pick-up truck is somehow a valid option whereas a SUV is not. Even with a king cab, I have never seen a truck that can hold more than 5-6 folks, which makes it much less useful for us. We tend to carry people more than dirt and farm tools, so why would I prefer a truck? Should I let my friends and family just pile into the bed everytime we need to go somewhere?

Sorry, but I just cannot do the minivan thing. No way, no how. It's equivalent to spiritual castration.

What "lie" about the driving position? Of course, it's subjective, but I like it and so do the kids and the wife. It's just plain fun, and that's all the justification that's needed.

With respect to safety, it's become a valid issue for me after having children. It's also why I gave up riding motorcycles this year. Fortunately, I've never had an automobile accident, but I attribute this more to luck than skill. I don't care how good of a driver you are - you cannot control what others may do around you.

Don't you find it at least a little ironic that Porsche owners find fault with SUV's? It's not like we can really justify our Porsche purchases as practical.

John H. in DC Area

Anir, I find your last point about irony very interesting (not that your other points aren't interesting, but you and M758 are pretty well engaged on them). I've often asked myself how I can simultaneously say "I don't need a Cayenne" at the same time I say "I 'had to have' the 993TT.'" The difference comes down to LUST.

Granted, I need transportation from point A to B on a daily basis, but the only thing I can think of to explain what compelled me to spend the cash on the 993TT was lust, pure and simple -- wanting to acquire and enjoy the excitement, looks, thrills, king-of-the-road performance. I need family transportation, either a large sedan or SUV, but I can't justify the Cayenne purchase because it doesn't inspire any lust for me where it counts for an SUV. Roominess? Nope, there are bigger and more functional SUV's both up and down market. Ride comfort? Nope, there are more luxurious and plush riding sedans and SUV's. Off-road performance? Nope, again models down (Jeep) and up-market (RR) handle the off-road stuff (which I'm really not likely to do anyway) better. Towing? Come on, think biiiig American iron. Looks? Nope too pedestrian, the X5, RR, and Denali/Escalade (with very different stylistic approaches) seem demonstrably more pleasing to the eye. Speed/ability to do 0-60 in 5 secs. or hurl down the highway at 150mph? Nope don't want it in an SUV, but if that were my thing, that's the only characteristic where the Cayenne starts to look good. Lust-caliber good, though? Nope.

Okay, I swear I'm finished (for now), but lust is the only thing that can inspire me to ignore reason, and it's just not present, either because of the badge or any relevant characteristics. It's a mighty fine vehicle, just not for me.

Going back to work ...

Anir

John,

Nicely said. I couldn't agree with you more. It's about lust for me too, which is why I have to avoid a minivan - it creates "anti-lust" in me.

Have a good Thanksgiving.

John.

This whole SUV craze is way out of hand. I mean, even as a Porsche owner, I have absolutely nothing to say to someone who "makes a lot of money" and only "drives upscale cars". It is you kind of people that give Porsche the status snobby image it has. And you think guys like me are just jealous and know nothing? Paa-leeez! Give me a break. There will always be some "successful" person having to buy the best, fastest and most image-building car. Ibanez, how much time have you spend under the hood of anything? Don't insult the rest of us (who really know cars) just because you think you pull down mad coin. Quite frankly, I love showing guys like you up with my Bastardized 928. In 5 years, I'll still be driving it while you are out searching for the next image building car you can find. Better yet, the rest of my money will still be invested in things that will go the long haul, not lose 50% in three years, and 70% in 10 years.

The SUV is a status game, pure and simple. If I needed to tow or haul things I would get something large with a V-8, but just to drive around in, well I don't think so. If you want a good all wheel drive car that hauls *** and can handle more people, then buy a turbo quattro or 4-motion wagon (oh my, NOT a VW, that wouldn't be cool enough). Let me tell you, VW makes a hell of a car that is as good if not better than anything else out there today.

I mean get real guys. How many of these people actually use these things off-road? Maybe 2%? I see nothing inherently safer in driving an SUV. Crash into a tree and see what happens.

I'm ashamed to see the type of people Porsche markets to these days...

This board is a perfect example of the difference between those who are car enthusiasts and those who drive the car because of the badge (you KNOW who are). What a joke, I can't believe I even responded to this pathetic thread, but nonetheless I wanted to drop my $0.02, or is that $0.04?

Anir

Hi John,

I've re-read your post, and I'm not sure I understand your point. For example, I grew up working on cars and even owned an automotive window tinting business at one point. I've painted two cars myself and still do 95% of the maintenance on my 993TT. I drive it everyday in any type of weather, and take it to the track frequently. My next planned car purchases (God willing) will be a dedicated 993 track car, and a 356A.

So, here's my question. Are you saying that someone like me doesn't qualify as a true car guy or a real Porsche enthusiast because I happen to love driving a big, luxury-oriented SUV as well? Have you stopped to consider that many non-Porsche-owning folks might incorrectly think you drive a 928 just for image? To many folks, a Porsche of any type is a car just for "rich" people. They might wonder why a Camaro or Mustang ain't good enough for you.

BTW, I agree that VW products (and the 928) are very desirable.

John.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I didn't see you boasting about how you can buy whatever you want. Nor did I see you saying anything about not wanting to drive anything that was "too middle market". Others on here have...

Yes, I do think SUVs are a status game, there is nothing that will change my mind on that. Does that make you a non-enthusiast, well no. I think the people on here who boast about how much money they make, call others idiots and make comments about only driving high end cars are, well, in short, pathetic. A little too much wine drinking and caviar eating going on.

It has just become a big keep up with the Jones game with too many people. You see it all the time, constantly trading up to the latest and greatest, just because they can. Remember, if you buy it to impress your nieghbors then you live among snobs and probably are one yourself.

John H. in DC Area

You have some interesting points, John. I'm with you in condemning any poster who calls another an idiot or otherwise attacks posters personally. And your message could be construed (if we strain) to highlight the need for many of us to give thanks for blessings on a day like today. Also, SUV's, like a lot of other machines, pose interesting and looming environmental challenges for us to solve as a society.

But I must say that you're painting every participant on this board with a mighty brooooooad brush there. First, this entire board focuses on high end cars, so it's no surprise that all you've read about are people talking about acquiring and driving high end cars. You call it boasting, and maybe some do, but most people have raised the fact of acquiring one for comparative purposes. Two, of course some people buy certain SUV's for status, but certainly the vast majority of SUV's out there are not status symbols; and Anir, for one, has amply catalogued all of the non-status-based functional justifications for needing some form of ultra-roomy transportation. Needing and acquiring a vehicle that has extra roominess doesn't make one a snob. If he says he needs to transport 7 to 9 folks someplace, then who am I (are you) to judge him or anyone else for that matter on the basis of their filling a need for that extra functionality.

I'll end by saying you really don't know (can't learn) much about the character of the people on this board by simply looking at their posts. You don't know what they do with their spare time, you don't how much they give to charity, you don't know in every case what they do for a living. I choose to believe that most, though not all, go about their lives and acquisitions without condemning those less fortunate or with different values and ideals.

Happy Thanksgiving <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

mpm '95 C4

[quote]Originally posted by John H. in DC Area
<strong>I'll end by saying you really don't know (can't learn) much about the character of the people on this board by simply looking at their posts. You don't know what they do with their spare time, you don't how much they give to charity, you don't know in every case what they do for a living. I choose to believe that most, though not all, go about their lives and acquisitions without condemning those less fortunate or with different values and ideals. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Any chance you might run for elected office? You get my vote. Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours...